Building something MS-related

[Eric D]

Good luck getting it too work. If you can, I will be impressed.

I spent the last year trying to build one, and there are so many small details to overcome, the effort is just too great at this point...

To start with, your MS275 circuit boards don't match. It took me two years buying every MS275 that showed up on eBay for me to find two boards with close enough serials that all the components on them matched. In the end I had over 10 MS275s in my possession.

The next hard part is the MS2250 side of the amp. In order to keep the red transformers and still have a MS2250, not a MS2250TA, you have to rebuild the transformers and mod the amp. This I did pull off about 6 years ago, but I will have to pull it off again when the time comes. Then I need to source green output transistors off an original MS2250 so they match the green ones on my MS275.

Just about anyone can stick two MS275 boards and a MS2250 or MS2250TA in a heatsink and call it a BOFAS, but I will never accept that as a "real" BOFAS.

I am trying to build one which is just as if PG had built it, using everything I have learned about their LE amps over the years.

[marko]

^^^^^^^ that and the fact considerable work will be needed to fit the fets to the sink correctly with new holes tapped and old holed filled somehow to make it look right, lots of work needed to do the job right but would be worth the effort if done right!

[freshkryp69]

Joerg, you never fail to impress or inspire! this place just keeps getting better and better! Some people would just hang these custom amps on a wall but I'm sure I speak for a few when I say your creations need to be used/ installed to fully appreciate these master pieces!! Keep up the kick ass work bro, and take more pic's of the build processes!!!

[joerg]

I know that the two MS275 boards do not match. One is a REV.G and one is an F. I got two MS275´s with sequential serial numbers. Doesn´t get any closer than that. I bought a total of 6 MS275´s which one is still overseas. The boards u see are only for testing and trying different things

I´ve choosen to go with an MS2250TA board because i like (actually need) the 2 Ohm´s stability for an install. I have 2 more original MS2250´s and it would be a matter of seconds to change that out.

Fitting the MS275 boards into the MS1000 sink isn´t that hard. The clamp down bars fit one side very well. The other side is a matter of drilling 6 new holes.

[Eric D]

Well, no one probably cares, but with a MS2250TA in it, I won't ever consider it a BOFAS. Taking the easy way out is just that, the easy way.

Besides, since I came up with the BOFAS idea in the first place, I have no issue specifying what would make it legitimate or not.

I have 2 matching MS275s, a MS2250TA, and a MS1000 heatsink all sitting here on the shelf. In a few hours I can put them together into a heatsink and call it a BOFAS, but the reality is it would just be a joke of an amp.

If you are going to take the time to build something like this, why not do it right? (paint, silkscreening, plexi with BOFAS graphics, buss bars, real MS2250 power, etc)

[kg1961]

he would have to change his setup he need 2ohm bridged. but the item is still very cool I can't wait to see pics of it!!!!!!!!
Eric you were the guy that made the ad years ago? very cool if you did!!!

[shaheen]

Would a bride not have something smaller then a frank in terms of channels , but larger then a frank

so where frank is 6 channels and SOFAS is 4 , I would expect BOFAS to be 5 but maintaining the 2125 as this is the core or the common denominator between frank and SOFAS. just my views.....I do love the ideas that we do on the forum, good luck both Jeorg and Eric

[Eric D]

Six years ago I came up with the BOFAS idea, and both myself and Ahsmo made the ad shown below. I took photos of a MS2250 and two MS275s in a specific pattern, and Ahsmo put them together with some photoshop effort. I have been working a bit here and there for 6 years now to build an actual BOFAS. Mine will have silk screening on the ends with the description of the functions (gain, speaker (+) and (-), inputs, etc) just like any other official MS production amp has. Both gain controls for the two MS275 boards will be accessible on one end. PG would never build a MS amp with gain controls you have to remove the plexi to get at. The paint will be as close to official frank paint as I can get, with the silk screening as close to the pink on the frank as I can get. When the whole amp is done, I was then planning to have a contest of sorts to generate "official" BOFAS plexi, with its own theme, just like the Frank and Son of Frank have. My whole goal was to build an amp so official, even PG would have a hard time telling if they had made it or not.

Some of you guys have been making custom amps, and they are great as custom pieces, but they are far from being anything official, or even close to official.

The MS500 I worked on for Pedi is just a plain painted amp. Even the two MS2125 board in it don't match. It literally took me no effort to make, Pedi sent me the parts pre painted and I put them together. It is no different than a MS1000 is, other than the paint.

I give Joerg credit for building the MS1000 sized shroud, as that took actual effort, but the amp inside it is noting special. It is just a MS1000 with different paint, which makes it far less desirable than the real MS1000 in nickel plating. From the photos I have seen, it has no text on the ends so you can't tell what wire goes where.

Next is the MS875, which gets even more credit, as Nicco had to figure out where to run the buss bars, make them, make the end plates, and get it all together. This took real effort, time, and planning. However, it does not have any text on it, and the controls are not accessible from the ends. Both of which would prevent this from ever being a product PG could produce.

Lastly we have Jason's ZPA beast made from a pair of Ti800 boards. He deserves the most credit, as his took the most work, the most planning, and he actually built the thing. It too has its shortfalls from being "official", but I think he has done the best effort thus far.

I am sure some of you are reading this, saying who cares, what is the big deal, and what right do I have to complain, considering I have not made anything. Well, you would have a point. But, I know there are also some of you who agree with me, and the production of these unfinished custom amps has just become a race for glory, not a race to perfection. I happen to fall into the need for perfection category when it comes to these things.

[Eric D]

Making those above images of the BOFAS was a blast. My mother has severe arthritis, and her hands have become swollen and deformed over the years. I took a marker and drew fake "stitches" on her hands, then had her lay down on the living room floor holding Ben Vollmer's MS2250 I had just finished working on at the time. I setup a tripod and took photos. I then created a grid on the basement floor with tape and set out the MS2250 in the correct position for the camera angle taken earlier. I moved a MS275 down and snapped a photo of it. I then moved the MS275 again and took another photo. All three amp photos were them combined with the original hand holding photo to generate the overall image.

To make the fake photo look more realistic, I took the Car Audio & Electronics buyers guide which had just been released and opened it to a page with an ad on the right side. I put it on my scanner at a slight angle as if I was in a hurry and did a crappy job. Ahsmo rotated the image and blended it in with the the buyers guide page.

When it was all finished, I posted the photos on the original PG forum. Then the fun began. According to some people I knew working at PG, they started getting calls from shops asking to pre-order the BOFAS. Everything became so exciting at the time, even the PG engineers got onboard. They came up with their own creative idea and made a similar add, then posted it. I believe their amp was called "Count Vampula", and was based on the M series amps. They had a photo of it on a coffin, and some great text about how the amp was so powerful it would suck your blood dry or something to that affect.

Either way, from that point forward I have been working to build a real BOFAS, as close to a production product as possible.

[Misfire]

Didn't mean to crack this can open.... lol. I find all the custom amps here just awesome. I can see both points of view as well. I'm just glad I get to see all the great mutations! Thanks for keeping the dreams alive to all!

[Pedi]

Eric, I must agree to the most of the things you mention regarding the perfection of "making" a custom amp...

But I do think that it is bad that you do not even like your own assembly of the red MS500. You made it look like new, and rebuilded the boards to be like new. It was never meant to be anything else than a MS500 - but with original PG-red paint - and in "new" condition.

Regarding the MS875, you of all people should see the huge amount of time and effort to make the amp be as it is today. You are right, the gains are not moved, but ONE of the reasons were that I saw that it would take even more time of Nico's already too short nights. Another reason was that as I actually gonna use the amp, I hopefully will not have to use the gains more than "one" time. I never intended to try to make the guys at PG jelaous or something, it was built to fullfill my needs and desire.

Regarding both amps missing prints on the endplates... As you know, I did just recieve the MS875 @ my house. I do have plans of doing silkscreening to the endplates, but want to take both the MS500 and MS875 endplates at the same time. When you recieved the parts to the MS500, you for sure know that I could not have made the silkscreening for the endplates.

I for sure am looking forward to the day you build the BOFAS, that will be a nicelookin' killer amp. No doubt.

But I am pretty sure that when my MS500 and the MS875 will be mounted in a car along with my other amps, there will not be any doubt that those two amps will look goddamn nice aswell.

But I guess, that`s just me...

[Eric D]

Then don't call them the MS500 or MS875, just call them the "Pedi's custom amps", "Bride of Pedi", or "The Firefighter". No one, not even me can complain about them then.

When you stick a title on these which conforms to the standards set by PGs own LE amps, you imply they are equivalent.

MS500 obviously derives from being half of a MS1000 (2 MS2125 boards instead of two MS2250 boards).

MS875 obviously derives from being 4 MS275 boards, which would be 8 x 75W, just like the MQ430 is 4 x 30W.

If I (or someone else) went and built a MS500 which had functional endplates, and maybe a MS500 silkscreened plexi to go with it, then who has a "real" MS500? The same goes for the MS875. I have been working on a MQ475 for some time, which I even intend to have a MQ475 endplate made with the same blue text as all the other MS amps. If I made two of these amps, and then put them in a single MS1000 heatsink, who then has a MS875, you or me? They both are not the same, so only one can be the real deal.

If you intend to finish both of these amps some day, then why not announce them when they are finished, instead of before hand?

[Pedi]

I guess you and me see things abit differently here Eric.

Let us take the MS500 as an example. If I silkscreened the endplates, and made a real MS500 plexi it would be cool. But it will never be the real deal, since I am not PG, neither have they ever released it. It is a custom made amp, nothing more, nothing less. I have never stated anything else.

I am into PG due to the fun and love of the MS-series, as goes with many of the other members here. I am really proud to own a brandnew red MS1000 sink with 2 refurbished MS2125 amps in it. It looks like a dream, and I am looking forward to use it - and show it to my fellow caraudio norwegian dudes.

You ask me who has the real deal if you also build a "MS875". The answer is both. Or none. They both are a custom amp, none are the real deal. No matter how much you put effort in moving the gains into the endplate etc, the amp will never be a PG-made product.

I have got theese amps made/assembled/build to fit my needs and desire in my install. The reason why I put pics out here, is that actually some people like to see the same thing that I see.

Why should I not "announce" the amps before they are 100%? If I recall right, you have a link on your webpage to your MQ475 - even though it is not finished. You have also named the amp in a PG-way, even though the result is not a PG-factory product.

Eric, I like to discuss with you. I highly respect you, I do. But I do have PG-items because I love them. I love custom devices too, and I guess I will never stop doing that. If you feel affended by me calling my custom amps names that is similar to the real MS-amps - I do not care too much really. The names are just for fun, they are just stating what the custom device is assembled together with - not trying to be a secondary Phoenix Gold company.

[Eric D]

The only reason I ever posted anything to do with the MQ475 is I felt forced to when a few members made similar amps.

When I stick time, effort, and most importantly money into something, I have a hard time when others steal the credit.

I owe you one on this Pedi. You have helped me realize my time is up. I am getting way to old for this hobby, and I take it far too seriously. I need to focus my efforts elsewhere, car audio is no longer "fun" for me.

[Pedi]

I owe you one on this Pedi. You have helped me realize my time is up. I am getting way to old for this hobby, and I take it far too seriously. I need to focus my efforts elsewhere, car audio is no longer "fun" for me.

I think we are both around the same age, Eric. So That is not a problem.

But you obviously take my english wrong. We must be allowed to discuss things, and have different meanings - without you beeing like this. Remember, we are sitting on a chair with a world apart us. If I amuse myself with a red MS500-named amp, please do not react like you do now. I would never discuss this with you, if this would have ended in you saying that caraudio in no longer fun, due to my personal meanings.

And just for the record... The BOFAS is a great and cool custom amp idea, and it kinda sucks if anyone makes it before you have "made" it. (No offence to Joerg, but the BOFAS will always be the one I have seen for years on the "advertisment" made by Eric and Ash. No doubt. Just my .02)

[joerg]

I give Joerg credit for building the MS1000 sized shroud, as that took actual effort, but the amp inside it is noting special. It is just a MS1000 with different paint, which makes it far less desirable than the real MS1000 in nickel plating. From the photos I have seen, it has no text on the ends so you can't tell what wire goes where.

Thanks for that Eric. I´m kinda thought the same way about my amp and the non screened endplates. I took care of the endplates already Mine are silkscreened already. Will post new pic´s as soon as i get a chance. I´m fitting the amp into my cars trunk right now.

[nico boom]

I'd like to chime in here after reading this thread, and seeing where this is leading to.
.....Is everybody trying to make their own designes and self-designed custom amps up to Eric's standards now...?
I don't see the point in you tearing down the fun after all the time, money and efford that people have invested in creating something they just want to build Eric.
No matter what they call the result; it's THEIR CHOICE, and not a "lookalike" of any existing original PG-amp, making it a bad copy or anything.
I have the feeling you are pissed off that there are more people here ,beeing able to, and having fun with building custom amps Eric.
You are not the only one who enjoy building something that does not exist already, and you obviously don't like it.
I dislike some things as well [like the way this thread is polluted now], but will NEVER spoil the fun for others like you are doing right here.
Use your own standards to build the BOFAS "like PG would have build it" and surprise us all; I will be as enthousiastic about that , JUST LIKE I WILL BE ABOUT ANY OTHER CUSTOM PROJECT ANYONE ELSE WILL BUILD.
You are known for your work Eric, and respected for that, as well for your honest opinion; tearing down other people's work [including your own] has no purpose, and therefore makes no sense.
It looks to me like you are afraid someone will "steal" the BOFAS idea from you, and build it before you can; that would explain your emotional reaction. Don't let those thoughts spoil the fun for others please, they deserve our support; this forum is about ENJOYING our hobby together, remember?
That's what I felt needed to be said.
JOERG; GO AHEAD and build what you like; it's all about FUN! [and not a contest where people will look for any flaws they can find and post about them].
If you can use my help while doing so, I'll be here.
Nico

[Eric D]

OK, Nico, you are right.

I apologize to anyone here I have disrespected.

I am really jealous as I cannot make any custom amp, and you guys can.

I tried making a MQ475, and one of the 4 channels has full gain no matter what I do. I have dug through it over and over and it does not work right. As hard as I tried to make something special, I failed, and every time I see another custom amp being made I just feel worse.

In the case of Pedi's amp, all I did was built a custom crate to ship an amp in. Pedi did all the work sourcing the parts. Sure I put it together, but that was no different than putting together any other MS amp I had taken apart to replace the caps on. Pedi gives me way more credit than I deserve, and I feel guilty about it.

So I guess I just cut down your guy's projects in an effort to feel better about my own failures.

None of this gives me any right to cut anyone else down, and I am sorry for that.

This is why I need to be done with car audio. I just can't handle it anymore. I have stacks and stacks of broken amps piling up for which I cannot figure out what is wrong with them. I built myself up to think I knew something about this stuff and was good at it. The reality is I don't know a whole lot more or have much more skill than the next guy.

My wife and family have been getting worried about me, and they can see how stressed out I am getting. Any time I am not working on an amplifier for someone I feel guilty about it. I feel guilty watching TV, and my wife can tell. The only thing that gives me any relief is mowing my lawn, as I know I have to do it, and I can spend the whole hour thinking through the broken amps I have and possible solutions for them. I have not touched many of my other hobbies in nearly a year, and that pains me the most.

Nico, you made an excellent point about FUN. It is no longer fun, it is no longer a hobby, now it is work, and it is clearly time for me to move on. The only real fun I have had in some time with car audio was reviewing the new PG amps. That was all fun, and did a good job keeping my mind off my other car audio problems.

[The Golden One]

hey man dont be so stressed about having a bunch of amps that dont work i have a lot of amps i have yet to find the problems with. my solution is just to buy more amps that do work that way when i look at the one's that dont work i dont feel so bad.

[ttocs]

sounds like it snuk up on you and somehow became a job?! After working in the industry fulltime for almost 10 yrs I realized that I no longer was enjoying it the way I use to when I noticed I did all my buddies cars and never did my own! I spend 50-60 hrs a week working on other peoples cars I was way too tired to think about working on my own. Tihs is the warning I give to anyone that starts in the industry and burn-out is not uncommon. The wost case I heard was a KILLER installer in scottsdale az that is now a sushi chef, good for him I mean he is happy but that guy could build....

You got talent, anyone can see that on here with even seeing your work but no one can fix everything even when they know everything. Any shop I have worked at that had an on-site tech a that same pile of amps that may one-day mysteriously start workng if we hooked power up to it(it has happened) or are also good for spare parts if the time comes. If is not like you are dealing with a cars motor where you can phisically take apart 98% of the motor to see what is wrong we are dealing with componants that we cannot take apart.

To tell you the truth I wish I had your talents as I never managed to do much circut board repair and always wanted to. If I am not mistaken I have not heard you talk about any official schooling for this so if that is the case and this is self taught then I am 2x jelious. I do know you have been having a bit of a rough patch lately and unfortunatly all I can say to that is join the club, but it is gonna get better.

And as one of the assholes that has previously gotten into it with you over stupid shit I will make a personal request that you NOT get out of this shit as you add alot around here. As for the amp not meeting your standards, who gives a shit? The fact that yours would be better WHEN it is completed is something to look forward to and I really have no doubt that you were gonna do it oneday...

[eazy-e]

Jason's ZPA beast made from a pair of Ti800 boards


where can i find this in the phorum?

[itchnertamatoa]

a little search woulda helped
here's the link to it
http://phoenixphorum.com/my-zpa-0-8-s-1 ... light=zpa0

[KUB3]

Can I humbly suggest looking into having multiple hobbies.

When one hobby gets a bit dull move into a totally fresh scene for a couple of months. I also happen to love building retro rc cars, or mountain bikes, making things in the workshop, plus other things. When I return back after a break you appreciate the fun much more. Just focusing on one thing will lead to a loss of perspective. I once got far to obsessed over home hifi many years ago. Once my car hifi is sorted soon I intend to dive right back into my love of other hobbies for a while

[jbob0124]

My other hobby is work

[12voltjunky]

Eric, please don't sell yourself short.
you know a heeluva lot more than most. This phorum
is a mecca for mad skilz. You're a guru IMO