S400.4 "pre review" issues...

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Eric D
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S400.4 "pre review" issues...

Post by Eric D »

I have been working on the performance aspects of the S400.4 today, and I ran into an issue.

This link is to an audio file in quicktime format (it is all I had at the moment), of the fan on the S400.4. I recorded it with a Behringer ECM8000 microphone, so it should actually be a pretty good audio file.

http://temp.stipud.com/S400_4_fan.mp3

I load tested the amp and when the fan kicked in I was a bit shocked. This is horrible sounding.

The file breaks down as follows...

Initially the fan is spinning.
At 0:30 I tip the amp on its top (upside down)
At 0:45 I tip the amp back on its bottom
At 1:10 on its top again
At 1:12 back to the bottom
At 1:20 I kill the rem feed

So, the fan seems to be rubbing on the bottom of the chassis. I sure hope PG has not started shipping these.
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Post by Eric D »

Here is a photo of my setup...
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Post by gbody805 »

Could they have pulled it from the line to send it to you before the QC steps?

Maybe bypassed the final listening test, if this is still done?
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Post by Eric D »

gbody805 wrote:Could they have pulled it from the line to send it to you before the QC steps?

Maybe bypassed the final listening test, if this is still done?
Maybe, but I am seeing this as a design issue, not a QC issue. The fan is too close to the bottom of the amp (or so I think), it needs some spacers to move it away slightly.

I am going to take the bottom off and see if I can figure out what is going on. Maybe I can mount the fan on backwards and it will solve the problem.
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Post by Eric D »

I took the fan out, and below is a photo. You can see where the tips of the blades were scraping on the sheet metal. There were spacers, but they are not thick enough. And there are recesses in the fan mounting holes, so I can't flip the fan around using the included hardware. I need to put some washers or something on it as well. Either way, if this is the same method used in the production version, there will be issues on hot summer days...
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Post by Eric D »

I flipped the fan around and moved the lock washers which were used as spacers to the top so I can keep all the original hardware. I will put it back together and load test it again to see if this solves the noise issue.
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Post by gbody805 »

That will change the fan from a pusher to a puller or vis-versa?
Will you have to switch the polarity?

Will this change anything with the cooling?
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Post by Eric D »

gbody805 wrote:That will change the fan from a pusher to a puller or vis-versa?
Will you have to switch the polarity?

Will this change anything with the cooling?
These are very good points. Personally, I don't think the fan will do anything anyway. The fan is on the bottom of the amp, and the sides of the heatsink and the ends of the bottom plate all make a flat seal against what ever mounting surface the amp is installed on. There is no way for the air from the fan to flow anywhere. It will just agitate the air in a limited space next to it. To actually cool the amp, you need to move hot air away from it, and cold air to it.

Further compounding things is if you mount the amp to a box with carpet on it for example. In this case the fibers of the carpet will most likely push up through the fan slots (further plugging them off), and rub on the blades of the fan, no matter which direction it is installed.
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Post by ttocs »

now morgan swore to us that every amp is tested and you posted apic of all those tests marked off. IT sounds as though the fan is rubbing and might have been knocked slightly loosein shipping maybe.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
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Post by Eric D »

ttocs wrote:now morgan swore to us that every amp is tested and you posted apic of all those tests marked off. IT sounds as though the fan is rubbing and might have been knocked slightly loosein shipping maybe.
The fan only comes on when it gets scalding hot. I bet it never came on during testing.
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Post by ttocs »

i would stil assume the throwers/shippers did it during shipment.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
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Post by Eric D »

ttocs wrote:i would stil assume the throwers/shippers did it during shipment.
How? There is physically nothing wrong with the fan. The way it is mounted now it rubs, flip it around and it does not (it can't, the fans frame protects it this way).

I flipped the fan and power tested it again until it came on, and now there are no issues. It is barley audible.
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Post by gbody805 »

That is alittle getto to use lock washers as spacers.
From the photos you can see where they dig into the plastic when tightened down.

You would think a cork gasket or something of the sort would have been a better choice if this is the correct way they're installed.

Maybe a brake down in assemble. Someone is installing them up-side down? :shock:
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Post by Francious70 »

Just seems like a stupid design issue to me. Some marketing guy told the engineer that the amp needs a fan to be "good", so he just slapped one in there.

If the fan isn't able to move air, then is it really needed? Does the amp overheat easily without it?
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Post by MW3 »

Eric,

We are on top of this fan/noise issue.

If we get a really hard/abusive end user, the fan does make a difference in thermal testing due to size and power of the amplifier. Just moving a little air in such a small amp is effective with music.

However, as you noted most users will not be able to get the fan to kick in.
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Post by Francious70 »

So the fan is basically to try and protect from your average basshead who turns the gain and bass boost to the max?
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Post by MW3 »

Yes, but the main concern is for the end user that turns this amp into a "big" 2 channel by bridging the front and rear channels.

Also, if this amp is installed in a boat, those amplifiers are also subject to very hard play times.

We take no chances with Thermal Issues, if we have to add heatsink, fan or electrical circuitry to improve thermal performance we will spend the extra money.
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Post by ttocs »

I thought I asked a while back if they were going to be fan cooled and you said no? Better safe then sorry for sure....
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Post by MW3 »

I think we were discussing Ti, not S.
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Post by Eric D »

Morgan, I am still very confused as to how the fan can help at all, considering the way it is mounted. When the amp is mounted to what ever surface it is going to be, the fan is just as affective as if the back sheet metal plate on the amp had no holes in it.

If you take one of these fans, connect power too it, and then set it down flat against a desk, they over rev first (due to loss of back pressure), and they only move air within maybe a 1/4in area out from the fan.

If this fan were mounted away from the bottom plate, deeper into the amp, then I can see it moving air around inside the amp. This still does not get air in or out of the amp, but is better than what it does right now.
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Post by coffee_junkee »

Might not be a bad idea to ship the amp with some spacers for the mounting tabs. Wouldn't take much to CNC them from HDPE or something similar. In this way, the user has the choice of mounting the amp such that air intake isn't hindered during high temperature situations. A quarter of an inch would make the fan useful and still keep the height profile of the amp somewhat thin...
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Post by Eric D »

coffee_junkee wrote:Might not be a bad idea to ship the amp with some spacers for the mounting tabs. Wouldn't take much to CNC them from HDPE or something similar. In this way, the user has the choice of mounting the amp such that air intake isn't hindered during high temperature situations. A quarter of an inch would make the fan useful and still keep the height profile of the amp somewhat thin...
That is a good idea, or at least a step in the right direction. If I ever installed a S400.4 in a vehicle, I would probably have holes cut in the mounting surface for it to breathe.
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Post by smgreen20 »

MW3 wrote:We take no chances with Thermal Issues, if we have to add heatsink, fan or electrical circuitry to improve thermal performance we will spend the extra money.
Now that's what I like to hear.




Maybe they could cast the part that has the mounting feet a bit thicker at the mounting hole locations. Each mounting hole would be like a 1/4" "tube" in which the mounting screw/bolt goes through, providing the space needed w/no extra parts and you wouldn't have to leave it up to the installer. It would have the clearance needed.
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Fan noise

Post by Kevin Siegel »

Francious70 wrote:Just seems like a stupid design issue to me. Some marketing guy told the engineer that the amp needs a fan to be "good", so he just slapped one in there.

If the fan isn't able to move air, then is it really needed? Does the amp overheat easily without it?
OK I want to interject that this stupid marketing guy had nothing to do with the design and engineering of the amps. We leave this to the engineers. The stupid Marketing guys develop the POP, web-designs, catalogs, and all marketing initiatives, for the Phoenix Gold product line.

So with that said us stupid marketing guys are still dedicated to giving you loyal followers the best Phoenix Gold branding possible.

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Re: Fan noise

Post by eulogious »

Kevin Siegel wrote:
Francious70 wrote:Just seems like a stupid design issue to me. Some marketing guy told the engineer that the amp needs a fan to be "good", so he just slapped one in there.

If the fan isn't able to move air, then is it really needed? Does the amp overheat easily without it?
OK I want to interject that this stupid marketing guy had nothing to do with the design and engineering of the amps. We leave this to the engineers. The stupid Marketing guys develop the POP, web-designs, catalogs, and all marketing initiatives, for the Phoenix Gold product line.

So with that said us stupid marketing guys are still dedicated to giving you loyal followers the best Phoenix Gold branding possible.

Kevin
Whoa there! I for one don't think that anybody working for PG is stupid, let alone the marketing guys!! I think alot of us members will agree with that :) I just wanted to state that.

Where did anyone call anyone stupid? Did I miss something? I see the idea was called stupid...
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