A simple yet difficult question about caps vs. powercores

money-b · Post by **money-b** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:14 pm

ok...i'm finishing up collecting for my build....what i want to know is in all of your opinions,what's better for systems....powercores or caps? i have 2 600.2 ti...and 1 500.4 ti for the fronts.....i have 2 jl audio w6v2 13.5's......i have a powercore 20. whats the best....a cap or the powercore...or the kinetik i read talk about? thanks for the help.

Post by **ttocs** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:16 pm

neither, put the money towards a HO alt and a bigger batt or two and solve the real problem which is lack of current, not lack of voltage..........

str3atwarrior · Post by **str3atwarrior** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:37 pm

I agree with ttocs!

My stock alt is supplying 115amp, so just the ZX475Ti and the Blaupunkt is no thread to it, no light dimming even when sounds is loud.

And HO alternator don't worth that much! I checked for a 180amp for my car just in case mine would die, it's less than 200$ CAD shipped to my house, way less than what a good PG amp worth! And if you sell your car, just put back the original alternator, and resell your HO for 3/4 of the price you paid, i'm sure it will sell quickly and easy!

str3atwarrior · Post by **str3atwarrior** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 3:39 pm

Oh and with a setup like yours, i highly suggest you to use 0ga cable and upgrade the big 3 with it! I also suggest using Scosche PODBI for battery terminals, they look great, are cheap (less than 20$ on ebay), accept 2 1/0, 1 4 and 1 8, so lots of options to keep you factory wiring plus update the big 3 and wire all thoses amps!

money-b · Post by **money-b** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:09 pm

oki...i'm kinda new to this,so a couple of ?'s....what's the big 3? what's Scosche PODBI ? and what does 2 1/0, 1 4 and 1 8 mean....excuse me if those are dumb questions,lol.

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:12 pm

has 2 1/0 and 4 gauge power wire and 8 gauge..

shawn k · Post by **shawn k** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:20 pm

ttocs wrote:neither, put the money towards a HO alt and a bigger batt or two and solve the real problem which is lack of current, not lack of voltage..........

Perfectly executed

gbody805 · Post by **gbody805** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:21 pm

The big three is in reference to the wires that run from your
(1) alt. to battery,
(2) Battery (-) ground to the engine block,
(3) engine block to the body or chassis.

By upgrading these to 0/1 ga wire you inprove the flow of energy.

str3atwarrior · Post by **str3atwarrior** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:24 pm

If you're going to pass a 1/0 gauge cable to feed your amps, you're gonna need a special battery terminal.

The PODBI is one of them, and is the one i used for my current install. It allows you to use
2 - 1/0 gauge cable
1 - 4 gauge cable
1 - 8 gauge cable

Most factory car only use one 8 gauge cable for the battery positive, some use one 4 gauge. The extra 1/0 are for a cable that goes to your amp, and the other one is to update the factory cable that goes from the alternator to the positive pole of your battery, allowing more amperes to flow through it.

The Big 3 are the main 3 wires used to flow current to your car. They are :
- Battery Positive to Alternator
- Battery Negative to Car Chassis
- Car Chassis to Motor

You should use 1/0 gauge cable to upgrade all three, especially if you're changing your alternator to a HO (High Output) one. A 1/0 gauge cable allow up to 350A to flow on the cable, the factory 8 gauge only allow 100A or 4 gauge 150A, and that's in best conditions, so upgrading the Big 3 will allow more amperage to flow through your car's electrical system!

Hope this clarify things

if not feel free to ask more questions!

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:41 pm

what do you do about cars with computers that control the voltage?

str3atwarrior · Post by **str3atwarrior** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:47 pm

tonym wrote:what do you do about cars with computers that control the voltage?

What do you means by that? I always thinked that the voltage was controlled by a voltage regulator in the alternator, not by the computer...

In either way, the main idea to upgrade the big 3 is to allow more amperage to flow, and should not affect the voltage...

Edit : Like if your car put 14.4V when running, the big 3 won't change that, but if your total system is pulling 150 or 200A, the big 3 will allow the amperage to flow without burning the smaller 4ga or 8ga cable that would else turn into a toaster-like wire...

money-b · Post by **money-b** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:56 pm

Cool...thanks for the info! much appreciated!

gbody805 · Post by **gbody805** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:02 pm

tonym wrote:what do you do about cars with computers that control the voltage?

Most of the cars with a CCM have a thermal sensor under the battery.
When the battery reaches a certian temp the voltage is pulled back by the computer to keep the battery from boiling.

As long as everything is in working order there should be no problem.

str3atwarrior · Post by **str3atwarrior** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:05 pm

gbody805 wrote:
tonym wrote:what do you do about cars with computers that control the voltage?
Most of the cars with a CCM have a thermal sensor under the battery.
When the battery reaches a certian temp the voltage is pulled back by the computer to keep the battery from boiling.

As long as everything is in working order there should be no problem.

Wow thanks for the info, didn't knew about that!

Can you give me an example of such car, just for curiosity?

gbody805 · Post by **gbody805** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:08 pm

Most of the Chrysler/Dodge vehicles have a CCM that has a voltage regulator built in.

I have a 1998 Dodge Durango- 5.9 V8.
It has a computer controlled alt. I'm running a 240 amp Alt. without a problem.

I've actually tried to switch the sensor with a pot to control the output by changing the temp the computer reads.

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:10 pm

str3atwarrior wrote:
gbody805 wrote:
tonym wrote:what do you do about cars with computers that control the voltage?
Most of the cars with a CCM have a thermal sensor under the battery.
When the battery reaches a certian temp the voltage is pulled back by the computer to keep the battery from boiling.

As long as everything is in working order there should be no problem.
Wow thanks for the info, didn't knew about that!

Can you give me an example of such car, just for curiosity?

My jeep has that sensor...

str3atwarrior · Post by **str3atwarrior** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:10 pm

So basicly when the battery's temp becomes too hot, the computer's drop the voltage to make it cooler and avoid failure?

jbob0124 · Post by **jbob0124** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:11 pm

gbody805 wrote:Most of the Chrysler/Dodge vehicles have a CCM that has a voltage regulator built in.

I have a 1998 Dodge Durango- 5.9 V8.
It has a computer controlled alt. I'm running a 240 amp Alt. without a problem.

I had a feeling you were going to say Dodge...So let me get this straight, as long as everything is hooked up the way it should be, then we shouldn't have to worry about it?

gbody805 · Post by **gbody805** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:16 pm

I've had my H.O Alt installed for over four years now without a problem.

I've had two X1200 and a X200.4 and a X200.2 pushing some what hard with no problems.

Worst thing that happened was the original Dodge battery still had old style vents.
This corroded my PG battery terminals.
Battery was still in good working order holding a good charge when changed for a sealed battery.

gbody805 · Post by **gbody805** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:18 pm

Sorry for the shift B.

What car are you working on?

tonym · Post by **tonym** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:24 pm

Im not 100% sure here..but I work on a small fleet of fords v-10's 6.0 powerstrokes and 7.3 powerstrokes (12 trucks)

The german guy that rebuilds my starters and alts said most new cars are computer regulated...and would need a after market module of some sorts to splice in to change the charge curve

dontlookatme · Post by **dontlookatme** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:57 pm

dude where are u located ill help u build ur system im sure washwithgas would help since we live like 5 mins from each other

Virtue · Post by **Virtue** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:49 am

I have (3) 2000 watt class A/B Tarantula amps and they suck a lot of current. I am using my STOCK 90 amp alternator. No one needs to really upgrade their alternator. Maybe to recharge your battery faster... As soon as your amps draws more current than what your alternator puts out, your battery then takes over. That is why your lights dim when your system hits a low note. Your alternator puts out around 13.4 ish volts warm, while your battery puts out 11.4 ish volts when power is being drawn. As soon as your system consumes more current then what your alternator puts out, your voltage drops, then dim lights occur, cause it is at a lower voltage... That is why you don't buy an amplifier that it's power rating is at 14.4 volts cause, it will only see that at a cold start up and as soon as you turn it up, your vehicles voltage drops and your amps output will drop, unless the amp has a regulated power supply... So, if your electrical system is having a hard time, at a heavy bass note and the voltage will drop in the 10 volts area, you NEED at least one more battery. I have 3 batteries with a cheap 25 farad capacitor... Rule of thumb, 1000 watts of class A/B amp you need 1 farrad cap. Digital amps needs about half that capacitance.
Note, most of the powercores on the market are ruined due to old age, don't buy them. They look fine, but, if you hook them up, they don't work.
If your electrical system is working well, with a large bass note, (including a capacitor) your system's voltage will be around 12.4 volts and not drop further down. For longer extended play you can add a spare battery.

As for the larger alternator and burning a battery out, it won't happen. A battery will only take in as much charge as it needs. Once full, that's it. As for the voltage regulators, they are built into the alternator. Most likely those Dodge sensors are there for protection. If your battery is crapping out and it is failing, it will heat up. Note: even if your battery terminal connectors are all corroded, your battery will heat up, so keep them clean!

shawn k · Post by **shawn k** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:00 pm

Virtue wrote:I have (3) 2000 watt class A/B Tarantula amps and they suck a lot of current. I am using my STOCK 90 amp alternator. No one needs to really upgrade their alternator. Maybe to recharge your battery faster... As soon as your amps draws more current than what your alternator puts out, your battery then takes over. That is why your lights dim when your system hits a low note. Your alternator puts out around 13.4 ish volts warm, while your battery puts out 11.4 ish volts when power is being drawn. As soon as your system consumes more current then what your alternator puts out, your voltage drops, then dim lights occur, cause it is at a lower voltage... That is why you don't buy an amplifier that it's power rating is at 14.4 volts cause, it will only see that at a cold start up and as soon as you turn it up, your vehicles voltage drops and your amps output will drop, unless the amp has a regulated power supply... So, if your electrical system is having a hard time, at a heavy bass note and the voltage will drop in the 10 volts area, you NEED at least one more battery.

Adding more batteries to a less than adequate charging system is only a "band aid" fix and does not tackle the real problem. If the charging system is not capable of providing the necessary current for a particular system it's true that the battery will step in with the extra current needed. It's ok for this to happen for moderate sized systems where the battery can dump in extra current for spikes that are common due to musical dynamics and the extra current they demand, but this is most certainly not the ideal situation for larger systems in which the alternator cannot even keep up whith the "constant" current demand of the system. Basically, at the point when the batteries need to start dumping in current constantly they start to deplete their charge. This is constantly happening more and more as the system is played all at the same time that the alternator is still prviding whatever it can BUT under these circumstances it is NOT charging the batteries back up AND the alternator is workin at %100 ALL the time!! This also means that eventually voltage will sag more and more the longer the system is played and the alternator (which is already taxed) will see even more of a load. The more of a load placed on an alternator the shorter it's life becomes. This becomes even more of a factor for heavily regulated amplifiers. As the voltage drops the amps draw more and more current to try to produce "rated" output... this in turn depletes the batteries even faster!!!

Upgraded alternators are nice not only becuase they can and do provide some extra current capability, but they are also capable of handling more stress (heavy load) compared to a stock one. They are also physically larger which provides better heat disipation (never purchase a "rewound" alternator claiming it's "high current"!!) Ideally, it's best to upgrade to a larger alternator AND larger battery/batteries for heavy current demanded systems.

Virtue · Post by **Virtue** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 10:09 pm

Shawn you are correct. Eventually you will drain your batteries... Eventually is the key word. But for most people out there, who cannot buy a larger alternator because there is not one made for their vehicle, this is the best option, extra batteries with caps. Yes, some alternators can be rewound, but, then there is an issue with heat and then there is the possibility of the voltage regulator and bearings burning up prematurely. For my vehicle, the max size alternator I was able to upgrade to is 110 amps (rewound). Lets see... from 90 to 110... for the cost, this was useless. So my 90 amp alternator has to run 12% longer to charge the batteries... Now for those people who have endless money and room under their hoods, to get custom brackets and put a crap load of alternators in, not to mention, pulleys for the belts... blah blah blah, then go for it!

The new Phoenix gold 2500.1 draws 150 amps. So anyone going to buy this is screwed I guess. Not many vehicles have alternators big enough for this current draw from what you are saying. I am drawing at least 750 amps full tilt. That is a crap load of alternators I would need... just think 4 alternators under my hood... On the other hand, how many of us play 160 Db for more than 10 minutes continuously? Maybe once in awhile, so draining the batteries completely, all the time, is over stated. Just buy the blue top Optima batteries and they will handle the stress... if any. So, extra batteries with caps are the way to go and is NOT a "band-aid" set up as you suggest. Just so everyone knows, I have 230,000 km on my stock alternator...

By the way, I did say "unless they want to charge their batteries faster" see, I was on your side... Oh, just so everyone knows, batteries with caps will supply quicker, smoother, and cleaner power to your amps when compared to an alternator.

So, all those readers out there, you have all the information you need to make a decision. Go with larger alternators or go with more caps and batteries. Either way, it will work. It all depends on your circumstances...