whats better the ZX or Titanium series amplier

counter punch · Post by **counter punch** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:56 pm

I have 4 2ohm boston pro subs and I am looking to run one Titanium 1200.1 or 2 Ti 600 amps or perhaps go with the zx amp and run 2 or 4 of of the zx 500 amps
Another thing I am thinking about is it better to run one amp for the subs or 2 amps. So that the subs would run in unison not sure if that matters at all just something I am thinking about.
The system I have is 4 boston pro 12 2ohm subs boston pro 6.53 and 6.5 component set. Phoenix gold bass cube, eq 232, 3 pld1 line drivers, Ti 20 farad power core, dd5, and a eclipse head unit older model but works great never had any problems with it. I just need to figure out the amps to go with and then do the install in my 2009 honda civic. The only down side is the trunk is alot smaller than my 2003 honda accord so installing all the subs will be difficult but worth it so when I install everything I will post the pics. Another thing is I thought about going with 2 Phoenix gold ti 12 the elite model cause I have loved phoenix since I first saw them and the quality associated with them so thanks for any info much appreciated

Post by **kg1961** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:56 pm

very cool gear is the boston 6.53 a 3 way set up?
with the amps you own you don't have the power the ti elite need about 1400 rms to make them sing. i would use the 1200.1 and run 2 of the subs
use the bass cube if needed
i don't see you having any 4 channel amps for the high end you could use 2 ti 600.2 for the front with a eq232 use the pld1's under the dash and the dd5 in the trunk to swith the remote in
i would say froget the cap as most have alot of problem as they get older
it would sound great but im sure other will chime in
best of luck

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:58 pm

uhhh... I hope your gonna be looking into upgrading your electrical system if you are planning more than 2 Ti/ZX amps they draw a ton of amperage.

eulogious · Post by **eulogious** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:59 am

The ZX and the ti's are the same amp essetntially. I believe all that really changed was the name, and the zx amps use actual gold on the circuit boards, and the ti's use "normal" solder with a coating to prevent corrosion. The same process that is used on almost any electronics now-a-days. Other than that I believe the zx500 is the same as the ti600.2, and the zx350 is the same as a ti400.2, zx450 the same as ti500.4, ect, ect. So either way you go, with the ti600.2's or the zx500's, they are essentially the same amp.

You looking to sell one of your zx500's?

I would love to have one to compliment my new white zx450v2. PM me if you are interested... [/hijack]

counter punch · Post by **counter punch** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:45 am

I havent purchased the new amps yet but I have 3 xs 2500 and 2 xs 4600. The reason I am going with different amps is the xs amps overheat big time and shut off left and right not to mention you can fry an egg on top of those amps. I am hoping that the zx or ti wont due to the fans on them.
And the componets I have are 3 way and 2 way. The best part is there all new when I had my system installed every thing blew and boston replaced all of my speakers so my subs and components are new . But my amps are old and the overheat thing just ruined my install. When I had all of the problems with my stereo it just turned me off to it and now years later I want to install it again so this time my amps will have fans.
Another thing is I am gonna upgrade the big 3, add the 20 farad cap and upgrade the alternator. And I am gonna install using fiberglass, vinyl and plexi glass and may use some mirror tint glass inside the sub box. I had the box in sea blue mirror tint and 1 inch lexan front withe the baskets being seen and highlighted by a neon light, for me that was the highlight of my install.
And thanks everyone out there for your input it is greatly appreciated.

eulogious · Post by **eulogious** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:48 am

I had an xs2500 at first, and it got hot running it at 2ohms, but that's expected. The ti400.2 doesn't get hot at all compared to the xs, that's for sure, so you will be happy with them. Same with my zx, run it full bore for an hour and it gets warm, never thermals though. I have been really impressed with both of them so far! You will not be sad going with zx/ti's at all

dBincognito · Post by **dBincognito** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:13 am

I personally like the ZX amps better than the Ti's.....no real reason, just my preference.

12voltjunky · Post by **12voltjunky** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:41 am

i like the ability to match the ti amps with ti accessories.
not that a zx-ti would be totally out of place in a ti install - im just sayin'

there were also more ti amps to choose from than zx-ti.

00goobs · Post by **00goobs** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:28 pm

Since there is a post on this already, I have a ZX600ti and TI600.2. The 600.2 does not have Zero Point silked on the board. Are they still identical aside from the gold plating? Another member had a 600.2 with Zero Point silked on his board. Thanks!

...I am going to use them for a 12" L5 each, just want to confirm they're the same...

Post by **Jacampb2** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:31 pm

The ZX600Ti's had Zero Point screened on the board, the others did not. They are functionally the same amplifier.

If you really have a Zx600Ti with gold plated boards, then post up pics. I'd love to see it, and to buy it if you want to sell.

Later,
Jason

Post by **Jacampb2** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:33 pm

BTW, the ZX series amps ARE NOT the same as the ZXti and Ti amps. They are very similar but not anywhere near the same. IMO, the ZX amps are a bit superior, however, they are "supposedly" not as reliable, and they are getting pretty old...

Later,
Jason

eulogious · Post by **eulogious** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:38 pm

I had a zx400ti and a ti400.2 and they were both identical. Same everything including the silk screening, so I don't see why the 600.2 would be any different. But who knows

I didn't really study the board or anything either...

dBincognito · Post by **dBincognito** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:36 pm

eulogious wrote:I had a zx400ti and a ti400.2 and they were both identical. Same everything including the silk screening, so I don't see why the 600.2 would be any different. But who knows I didn't really study the board or anything either...

^^^^

Jason knows what he's talking about, check out the zpa/ti build he did if you haven't seen it yet.

http://phoenixphorum.com/my-zpa-0-8-s-1 ... 10021.html?

Watch out for him, he can embarrass you with how much he knows.

00goobs · Post by **00goobs** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:39 pm

I've only removed the top covers and the board layout looks identical aside from the silk screens. I read on here that the ZX600ti had a gold plated circuit board, but from the top I could not tell. There are some resistors that are grey/blue between the amps and the capacitors for the power are different physically, but the same ratings... Thanks for the info and this forum is perfect!!!

Post by **Jacampb2** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:34 pm

The visible side of the board is what would have been gold plated. The ZXti's white paper, before the amps were released, showed ZXti's with gold plated boards. It also showed green torroids, neither of which ever made it to production from what I can tell. The amps pictured in the brochure were not complete (IIRC) but they did indeed look real. For this reason, I think there are a few GP ZxTi amps out there, and I would love to get my hands on them...

Anyhow, it may not be the case between the Zx400Ti and the Ti400.2, I only own the ZxTi version, but on the Zx600Ti there are some subtle differences, from memory, it is all screen/mask/layout things, but the Zx600Ti did not have the test points that the later Ti series did. It is pretty much a board revision thing, functionally they are the same amps.

The Zx series however is different. The ZX has a similar power supply design to all the other PG amps, but it's rail voltage has been found to be higher than some of the ZxTi and Ti amps, I only have one Zx500 to compare to my numerous Ti and ZxTi amps, but in my case the ZX has a lower rail voltage than the Ti amps, not by much, but it is lower. The Zx ps regulation scheme will allow the amp to supply high transient output current for longer than the ZxTi or Ti amps will, not by much, but it could be noticeable, this is also probably why the Ti amps are said to be more reliable. Power supply aside, the Zx amps are virtually identical in amplifier topology. A lot of the components in the ZX amps are obsolete, so they can get expensive to repair, but even some of the stuff in Ti amps is starting to get obsoleted. The Zx and Ti amps use different output transistors, if I remember right, the ZX ones were rated for the same current as the Ti's, but at something like 10V's less...

Cosmetically I think the ZX is the hands down winner, but that is really an opinion thing. They are so close to the same amps though that sonically there will be very little, if any noticeable difference. The ZX might have a little bit of head room on the Ti's, but they haven't got anything on the 1000.2

Later,
Jason

eulogious · Post by **eulogious** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:29 pm

Jacampb2 wrote:The visible side of the board is what would have been gold plated. The ZXti's white paper, before the amps were released, showed ZXti's with gold plated boards. It also showed green torroids, neither of which ever made it to production from what I can tell. The amps pictured in the brochure were not complete (IIRC) but they did indeed look real. For this reason, I think there are a few GP ZxTi amps out there, and I would love to get my hands on them...

Anyhow, it may not be the case between the Zx400Ti and the Ti400.2, I only own the ZxTi version, but on the Zx600Ti there are some subtle differences, from memory, it is all screen/mask/layout things, but the Zx600Ti did not have the test points that the later Ti series did. It is pretty much a board revision thing, functionally they are the same amps.

The Zx series however is different. The ZX has a similar power supply design to all the other PG amps, but it's rail voltage has been found to be higher than some of the ZxTi and Ti amps, I only have one Zx500 to compare to my numerous Ti and ZxTi amps, but in my case the ZX has a lower rail voltage than the Ti amps, not by much, but it is lower. The Zx ps regulation scheme will allow the amp to supply high transient output current for longer than the ZxTi or Ti amps will, not by much, but it could be noticeable, this is also probably why the Ti amps are said to be more reliable. Power supply aside, the Zx amps are virtually identical in amplifier topology. A lot of the components in the ZX amps are obsolete, so they can get expensive to repair, but even some of the stuff in Ti amps is starting to get obsoleted. The Zx and Ti amps use different output transistors, if I remember right, the ZX ones were rated for the same current as the Ti's, but at something like 10V's less...

Cosmetically I think the ZX is the hands down winner, but that is really an opinion thing. They are so close to the same amps though that sonically there will be very little, if any noticeable difference. The ZX might have a little bit of head room on the Ti's, but they haven't got anything on the 1000.2

Later,
Jason

Nice info dude! Thanks for that. I was figuring it was something like a board revision, and things of that nature more than actual "design" changes, but thanks for giving all the detailed info on it. I only wish I had some amps to compare. One of these days…

I also like the look of the zx's myself. The ti is fantastic too, but I like the simple white or black of the zx's. I just need to find me a zx500 to match my zx450...

The one big thing between the zx450 and the zx475ti is the internal xover. The zx450 wins hands down. I just got mine installed, and I am really impressed with the xover. It's got a lot of options. In the ti line, they kinda pussed out on the xover after the zx stuff. At least the kept the 4th order xover, but I wish the kept the cool xover of the zx450. Oh well, at least I got a zx450 that I am not getting rid of

eulogious · Post by **eulogious** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:41 pm

A little off topic but not… Does anyone happen to know that part numbers for the transistors and any other part that might fail on the zx and ti's amps? Since they are getting hard to come by I might want to pick some of them up to have on hand. I want to keep these amps around for a while, and having the hard to find parts would make it much easier to fix them if I need too. Thanks!

Post by **Jacampb2** » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:09 pm

You can use the Ti's output transistors in the ZX amps, but if you swap one you have to swap them all. The Ti's are 2SC5200 & 2SA1943 BJT complimentary pairs. Outputs should always at least be replaced in pairs, even if only one side has failed. The absolute best method, and the only option if you are subbing parts, is to replace all the pairs. There are 4 pairs in the ZX600ti, ZX475ti, ZX500, ZX450. These transistors are not cheap, and you should buy from a reputable source (i.e. not ebay). The transistors are Toshiba parts, and Toshiba has had some issues with counterfeit parts being sold cheap, as well as seconds ending up on the surplus market. I think they are around $5-$6 per transistor at digikey or mouser.

As for the ZX original outputs, well, I don't recall the part numbers off hand, but I have seen two different parts in them, a Motorola part that is available still, but I can't find the number for it! and IIRC, another toshiba transistor.

The power supply fets are still widely available, BZ44 for ZX if memory serves, and 60NE06 for the TI lineup.

One of the harder things to source are the pre-driver BJT complimentary pairs in either amp. I don't recall the ZX ones, but the Ti parts are 2SC5248 & 2SA1964-- I have never been able to find these. My research indicates that they went obsolete back in the late '90's, before the Ti's were even born. My guess is that PG bought a truck load of the things at discount prices, because they are not out there anywhere. Fortunately the pre-driver pair in the 900.7 can be swapped and last I checked, it was still available. Part numbers are 2SC4793 & 2SA1837.

Don't go ordering parts willy nilly, it will add up in a hurry. Most parts can be subbed, it just takes a while to find the right fit. None of the information above is guaranteed. I am at work and pulling most of this stuff from memory and some sketchy notes, so use it at your own risk!

Later,
Jason

00goobs · Post by **00goobs** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:10 pm

This info, even the help of repairing these amps is why this forum is PERFECT!

Jason, I read up on your ZX600 upgrade, but I don't remember if there was an end/result. I would like to know how it went and if it is possible to beef up a tantrum 500.2 in the way you modded the outputs of the ZX600. I have been reading on some of Randy Stone's other books and wanted to try my hand at upping the rail voltage on some misc junk amps for research purposes, hehehe...

Thanks for all the info/ideas!

eulogious · Post by **eulogious** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:01 pm

00goobs wrote:This info, even the help of repairing these amps is why this forum is PERFECT!

Jason, I read up on your ZX600 upgrade, but I don't remember if there was an end/result. I would like to know how it went and if it is possible to beef up a tantrum 500.2 in the way you modded the outputs of the ZX600. I have been reading on some of Randy Stone's other books and wanted to try my hand at upping the rail voltage on some misc junk amps for research purposes, hehehe...

Thanks for all the info/ideas!

The tantrums are a little different as they don't use BJT's for the output, they use normal mosfets for them, hence the lower price

I got a thread on repairing my tantrum 600.4 and what I had to do, there's alot of info in there about the tantrums. I am sure you can upgrade the tantrums, but they are not in the same league when it comes to "mods" you can do to them. At least this is from my experience working with the tantrums. Haven't torn apart any of my zx/ti's, so I can't speak about them.

eulogious · Post by **eulogious** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Jacampb2 wrote:You can use the Ti's output transistors in the ZX amps, but if you swap one you have to swap them all. The Ti's are 2SC5200 & 2SA1943 BJT complimentary pairs. Outputs should always at least be replaced in pairs, even if only one side has failed. The absolute best method, and the only option if you are subbing parts, is to replace all the pairs. There are 4 pairs in the ZX600ti, ZX475ti, ZX500, ZX450. These transistors are not cheap, and you should buy from a reputable source (i.e. not ebay). The transistors are Toshiba parts, and Toshiba has had some issues with counterfeit parts being sold cheap, as well as seconds ending up on the surplus market. I think they are around $5-$6 per transistor at digikey or mouser.

As for the ZX original outputs, well, I don't recall the part numbers off hand, but I have seen two different parts in them, a Motorola part that is available still, but I can't find the number for it! and IIRC, another toshiba transistor.

The power supply fets are still widely available, BZ44 for ZX if memory serves, and 60NE06 for the TI lineup.

One of the harder things to source are the pre-driver BJT complimentary pairs in either amp. I don't recall the ZX ones, but the Ti parts are 2SC5248 & 2SA1964-- I have never been able to find these. My research indicates that they went obsolete back in the late '90's, before the Ti's were even born. My guess is that PG bought a truck load of the things at discount prices, because they are not out there anywhere. Fortunately the pre-driver pair in the 900.7 can be swapped and last I checked, it was still available. Part numbers are 2SC4793 & 2SA1837.

Don't go ordering parts willy nilly, it will add up in a hurry. Most parts can be subbed, it just takes a while to find the right fit. None of the information above is guaranteed. I am at work and pulling most of this stuff from memory and some sketchy notes, so use it at your own risk!

Later,
Jason

Thanks for all the info man! If I am correct, you have to remove the BJT to test them anyways, so if I remove them, I will replace them

Only makes sense. That's what I did with my tantrum. Just replace them all.

It looks like I am going to have to save up a little to get these parts, but I think that I am going to stock pile them. I got another buddy who has another zx400ti, so I should stock up on them

But I will wait until till I have funds for them, and I will talk to you before I do.

I had to do a ton of research to find replacements for my tantrum, but I was able too, so I have a little experience looking up parts. Should be fun

Post by **Jacampb2** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:32 pm

00goobs wrote:This info, even the help of repairing these amps is why this forum is PERFECT!

Jason, I read up on your ZX600 upgrade, but I don't remember if there was an end/result. I would like to know how it went and if it is possible to beef up a tantrum 500.2 in the way you modded the outputs of the ZX600. I have been reading on some of Randy Stone's other books and wanted to try my hand at upping the rail voltage on some misc junk amps for research purposes, hehehe...

Thanks for all the info/ideas!

Well, like a lot of my hair brained projects, the ZX600 is not done. The case would not clear the much larger rail caps, and so I was using it for just a music amp on my bench while I worked. I got sidetracked with the ZPA 0.8 build and quit screwing with the 600, then I got side tracked by life, and haven't had much time for any of the amp projects.

As eulogious says, the tantrums use a mosfet output stage. This will make them much more difficult to upgrade, but it is why they are less expensive and smaller for the same power levels as the BJT output amps.

As for the Zx600, going to TO-3 packaged transistors isn't necessarily an actual upgrade-- the TO-3 devices are simply capable of dissipating more power than the TO-264 plastic cased counterparts. This means they have the potential to survive longer while supplying more current than a TO-264 transistor would be able to do. Someday I will get around to rewinding my torroids to really see what limits can be pushed, but I haven't had the time for it lately.

Later,
Jason

Post by **Jacampb2** » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:45 pm

eulogious wrote:Thanks for all the info man! If I am correct, you have to remove the BJT to test them anyways, so if I remove them, I will replace them Only makes sense. That's what I did with my tantrum. Just replace them all.

Not necessarily. There are instruments made to check them in circuit. Sencore used to make a in-circuit meter called the cricket, I own one of these and it works very well. There are some cases where the transistor must be removed to get a good result, but most can be checked in place. If you find a troublesome one to get a good reading on, most of the time you can lift just the collector lead and get good measurements.

For the most part though, when BJT's fail, they almost always fail shorted, when one shorts it puts a lot of stress on the other outputs on that channel. In the 500/600 BJT amps, this means swapping out the two pair on that channel. The 4 channel amps only have one pair per channel, and the little two channels also only have one pair per channel. It gets a lot more expensive with the bigger Ti amps, as you can end up with as many as 5 pairs on a single channel...

Later,
Jason