Time Correction and the Sound Stage

[Phoenixcolt]

Hi everyone, I am currently using an Alpine IDA-X305 Headunit with the PXA-H100 imprint processor. I have yet to use the IMPRINT technology itself, but I use all of the manual adjustments for sound setting.

At the moment, I am just using the oem tweets in the a-pillars and oem mids in the doors that have a passive crossover, but will get the RSd comps in soon and wanted to stick with the RSd passive crossover when I do. I am definitely leaving the tweets in the a pillars and mids in the doors.

What would be the best way to time correct to get a decent sound stage with a passively crossed over setup? With the tweets in the a pillars and mids in the doors, they are probably about two feet apart which is not ideal at all for time correction and a passive crossover. I guess the obvious answer is I could try time correcting off the tweets, then the mids, and then decide what I like better or settle somewhere in between...but I am not sure that will give me the sound stage feel I have always wanted.

Eliminating the rear speakers and going 3 way active through the headunit crossover is always an option but I am not sure I want to take out the rears at this point since I like to have those for rear passengers on road trips...but...3 way active would enable me to time align the tweets, mids, and sub independently. That would be my best bet for time correcting for a nice soundstage wouldn't it?

How would I power the tweets if I went this route? I was planning on running 2 channels of an X200.4 on the passively crossed over RSd comps in the front, and the other 2 channels on the RSd coaxes in the rear. If I go 3 way active, wouldn't 2 channels of an x200.4 become too much power for the tweets in a hurry? I know I can adjust the gains to a low voltage based off of whatever wattage is recommended for RSd tweets actively crossed over, but with that much headroom, could the tweets still burn up pretty easily?

Thanks for the input, I have really missed thinking seriously about my audio setup.

[brenzbmr@sb]

probably the best advise i can give you is measure the distance from your tweeter and your mid from your ear on drivers side, u will probably notice that they are not that "far off" from your ear as you think, take the one that is the farthest and use that to time delay. passenger side will probably be less distance between teh two and i believe taht the drivers tweeter will be slightly farthter away from your ear then the midrange.

again use the driver that is the farthest away as your speaker to delay. then just set your delay, if u are planning on keeping the rear speakers then u will need to measure them too and set accordinly to, i would just eliminate the rear dirvers completly.

goodluck

[ttocs]

I have the imprint module for the 9887 and it is great! I was suprised the at the difference it made.

[Phoenixcolt]

probably the best advise i can give you is measure the distance from your tweeter and your mid from your ear on drivers side, u will probably notice that they are not that "far off" from your ear as you think, take the one that is the farthest and use that to time delay. passenger side will probably be less distance between teh two and i believe taht the drivers tweeter will be slightly farthter away from your ear then the midrange.

again use the driver that is the farthest away as your speaker to delay. then just set your delay, if u are planning on keeping the rear speakers then u will need to measure them too and set accordinly to, i would just eliminate the rear dirvers completly.

goodluck

Thank you, you are probably right on, i bet they are pretty similar distance. And I may consider eliminating the rears completely down the road, but my concern is probably more about powering those tweeters with the amp I plan to use.

[Phoenixcolt]

I have the imprint module for the 9887 and it is great! I was suprised the at the difference it made.

I love the manual settings, but have you actually set the imprint with the microphone and all? I am curious how good that sounds or if it makes it sound strange or anything. That is also part of the reason I want to keep the rears in for now, so I can try imprint out.

[waynehead]

That is alot of power for those tweets, and if overpowering them is your only concern you will be fine. Adjust your gains with a dmm to whatever you feel like they are capable of all of the time, Id probably say 100 watts or so and never boost anything in the eq. If the gains are set at 0db by way mentioned then there is no way to ever get your amp to send too much to the tweets. I ran my xenon bridged 400x2 to my rsd comps for a little while. i didn't notice a difference between 200 watts other than how dirty my signal was. Not really in god practice because the crossovers arent made for than many watts but it didnt hurt them one bit because I didnt try to see how loud it was.

[Phoenixcolt]

That is alot of power for those tweets, and if overpowering them is your only concern you will be fine. Adjust your gains with a dmm to whatever you feel like they are capable of all of the time, Id probably say 100 watts or so and never boost anything in the eq. If the gains are set at 0db by way mentioned then there is no way to ever get your amp to send too much to the tweets. I ran my xenon bridged 400x2 to my rsd comps for a little while. i didn't notice a difference between 200 watts other than how dirty my signal was. Not really in god practice because the crossovers arent made for than many watts but it didnt hurt them one bit because I didnt try to see how loud it was.

Cool, thank you so much for the info.

[ttocs]

no I did it with the mic and my laptop and was really pleased with the overall corrections it made. I will be doing it again when I swap out my speakers for Ti elite and a roadster 66. ITs a neat process as it play a sign sweep through each of the speakers and then measures it. I was happy to find out that the set for the 9887 was a different and cheaper set-up then for the 701 and such and got it shipped to me for $75 so for that price it was well worth it.

Most alpine dealers have the abilit to do this for you and only charge a one time fee. Not sure what they charge but if it is not too much I would say its worth it.

[Phoenixcolt]

no I did it with the mic and my laptop and was really pleased with the overall corrections it made. I will be doing it again when I swap out my speakers for Ti elite and a roadster 66. ITs a neat process as it play a sign sweep through each of the speakers and then measures it. I was happy to find out that the set for the 9887 was a different and cheaper set-up then for the 701 and such and got it shipped to me for $75 so for that price it was well worth it.

Most alpine dealers have the abilit to do this for you and only charge a one time fee. Not sure what they charge but if it is not too much I would say its worth it.

I have the Alpine KTX-H100 Imprint set, it came with the Imprint disc and an Alpine mic, I also have a laptop.

What I read about using Imprint was that it was a pain because if you put the mic in 6 different positions in the car to get the best result, you have to disconnect the mic from the Imprint processor of each time and then reconnect it. Does that sound about right? Or did you use a mic out of your laptop and the Alpine software? If that is possible, it would be way easier.

Yours does look similar but it is a different part number specifically for the 9887.

[ttocs]

it took a little while to figure out, but once I got it running it was easy and took less then 20 mins. The more spots you measure, the better it will sound but it really was simple and worth the time IMO.

[Phoenixcolt]

So you did or did not have to disconnect and reconnect the mic from the processor each time? Doesn't say I need to in the manual, I wonder what it was that I read.

Did you say you ran the mic from your laptop the whole time though? Mine is supposed to be hooked into the processor the whole time and a usb cable goes from the processor to the laptop.

Doesn't seem like it should be difficult and a lot of people have good things to say. I think I am going to use this with the OEM speakers just to see if it makes a difference. The definitely redo it when I install the RSds again.

[HifiDon]

You do not disconnect the mic while testing. From previous experience the more positions, the better it will sound. For 90% of cars & customers it works GREAT! THEY love the sound. I just wish I had control over the equalizations AFTER it was processed. If it doesn't sound good, not too much you can do. You can turn OFF the imprint & do everything manually which I have done several times due to my customers likes/dislikes.

One thing you will find from a salesperson perspective is that I set the imprint AND the setting by ear on the unit. Reason for this, most cases it will reduce the subwoofer output drastically, it sounds good, but some customers want to break the trunk lids when their new songs come out. To do this, turn off the imprint & you again have ear-pounding bass

One way around this is to set the amplifier gain lower than usual on the subwoofer & turn it up after the imprint is done.

[Phoenixcolt]

You do not disconnect the mic while testing. From previous experience the more positions, the better it will sound. For 90% of cars & customers it works GREAT! THEY love the sound. I just wish I had control over the equalizations AFTER it was processed. If it doesn't sound good, not too much you can do. You can turn OFF the imprint & do everything manually which I have done several times due to my customers likes/dislikes.

One thing you will find from a salesperson perspective is that I set the imprint AND the setting by ear on the unit. Reason for this, most cases it will reduce the subwoofer output drastically, it sounds good, but some customers want to break the trunk lids when their new songs come out. To do this, turn off the imprint & you again have ear-pounding bass

One way around this is to set the amplifier gain lower than usual on the subwoofer & turn it up after the imprint is done.

I have been reading a lot of recommendations to turn down the sub gain when Imprinting. I will do that when the time comes.

Thanks for your input, this is very helpful!!

I have everything set manually now but I always think it can sound better but I don't always know what to change because I don't always hear every subtle difference between one frequency and another in the parametric EQ, and then once I make a change in the P.EQ that sounds amazing for one song or band, it usually sounds like ish for another ...so I have a feeling Imprint might be pretty good for me.

As long as the Headunit saves the manual setting so I can flip between manual and Imprint, that will be terrific.

[smgreen20]

Seriously, ditch the rears. My kids hear the fronts just fine. I've. Asked them on many occasions if it was loud enough for them and they say yes every time, and its not up all that loud when I ask.

[HifiDon]

It will save the settings & you will want to imprint off sometimes.

I'm assuming your running the internal amplifier on your radio for power, correct? Like others have said, I would disconnect the rears while imprinting. Then re-connect them afterwards & just use your fader if you want rear fill.

Also very important! Make sure you laptop is OUTSIDE the vehicle while testing. You don't want your computer fan kicking on during the imprinting.

[HifiDon]

Eliminating the rear speakers and going 3 way active through the headunit crossover is always an option but I am not sure I want to take out the rears at this point since I like to have those for rear passengers on road trips...but...3 way active would enable me to time align the tweets, mids, and sub independently. That would be my best bet for time correcting for a nice soundstage wouldn't it?

Most people enjoy front stage only! Since you have a nice deck with 3-way capabilities, I would recommend it. Drop the rear speakers, your passengers didn't pay for your system, they should have called shot-gun But I have never had complaints from rear passengers about rear fill. If anything, it allows me to turn UP my fronts more without them being annoyed!

How would I power the tweets if I went this route? I was planning on running 2 channels of an X200.4 on the passively crossed over RSd comps in the front, and the other 2 channels on the RSd coaxes in the rear. If I go 3 way active, wouldn't 2 channels of an x200.4 become too much power for the tweets in a hurry? I know I can adjust the gains to a low voltage based off of whatever wattage is recommended for RSd tweets actively crossed over, but with that much headroom, could the tweets still burn up pretty easily?
Thanks for the input, I have really missed thinking seriously about my audio setup.

If this is the equipment I had to work with, here is what I would recommend. These components do not allow Bi-amping.
First, NO rear speakers. Switch radio to 3-way mode.
Run 2 channels to your mid-bass drivers with dedicated RCA cables from radio. No RSd crossover, by-pass it.
Run 2 channels THROUGH RSd passive crossover to your tweeters. This will protect them in-case you turn the crossover off on your deck or hit the wrong button on your amplifier.
Also a dedicated set of RCA cables.

Set your gains accordingly & you can use the Alpine to adjust levels to the speakers/tweeters independently.
ALSO if you run the imprint, I would caution about the amount of power going to the tweeter. Possibly turn the gain down on them, just to protect them.

[Phoenixcolt]

Seriously, ditch the rears. My kids hear the fronts just fine. I've. Asked them on many occasions if it was loud enough for them and they say yes every time, and its not up all that loud when I ask.

I probably will. It would be so nice to time align the tweets and midrange separately.

It will save the settings & you will want to imprint off sometimes.

I'm assuming your running the internal amplifier on your radio for power, correct? Like others have said, I would disconnect the rears while imprinting. Then re-connect them afterwards & just use your fader if you want rear fill.

Also very important! Make sure you laptop is OUTSIDE the vehicle while testing. You don't want your computer fan kicking on during the imprinting.

Yes, At the moment I am running the stock speakers on the deck power. Have you imprinted on stock speakers? I might try it out on them just to see.

It's not like I love the stock speakers or anything by the way, I am just waiting until the weather gets better to get the RSd's in because I want to Dynamat the doors and everything and I don't think it will be a quick job on an 09 Rex, I have heard running speaker wire into the door is a huge B so I have been dragging my feet since LAST spring .

[HifiDon]

Have you imprinted on stock speakers? I might try it out on them just to see.

It's not like I love the stock speakers or anything by the way, I am just waiting until the weather gets better to get the RSd's in because I want to Dynamat the doors and everything and I don't think it will be a quick job on an 09 Rex, I have heard running speaker wire into the door is a huge B so I have been dragging my feet since LAST spring .

I have on several occasions. It will impress you for stock speakers... Give it a shot & give us a update!!

[Phoenixcolt]

Most people enjoy front stage only! Since you have a nice deck with 3-way capabilities, I would recommend it. Drop the rear speakers, your passengers didn't pay for your system, they should have called shot-gun But I have never had complaints from rear passengers about rear fill. If anything, it allows me to turn UP my fronts more without them being annoyed!

How would I power the tweets if I went this route? I was planning on running 2 channels of an X200.4 on the passively crossed over RSd comps in the front, and the other 2 channels on the RSd coaxes in the rear. If I go 3 way active, wouldn't 2 channels of an x200.4 become too much power for the tweets in a hurry? I know I can adjust the gains to a low voltage based off of whatever wattage is recommended for RSd tweets actively crossed over, but with that much headroom, could the tweets still burn up pretty easily?
Thanks for the input, I have really missed thinking seriously about my audio setup.

If this is the equipment I had to work with, here is what I would recommend. These components do not allow Bi-amping.
First, NO rear speakers. Switch radio to 3-way mode.
Run 2 channels to your mid-bass drivers with dedicated RCA cables from radio. No RSd crossover, by-pass it.
Run 2 channels THROUGH RSd passive crossover to your tweeters. This will protect them in-case you turn the crossover off on your deck or hit the wrong button on your amplifier.
Also a dedicated set of RCA cables.

Set your gains accordingly & you can use the Alpine to adjust levels to the speakers/tweeters independently.
ALSO if you run the imprint, I would caution about the amount of power going to the tweeter. Possibly turn the gain down on them, just to protect them.

I won't be bi-amping unless a 4 channel is considered bi-amping. What did you mean by that?

Originally I was going to use the passive crossovers on the components so I would send 2 channels of the amp to the front components and 2 channels of the amp to the rear 2 ways(coaxes)...separate amp for the sub.

But if I drop the rears, then I would run 2 channels to the tweeters and two channels to the mids. In 3 way, 1 pair of rcas goes to the amp for tweeter signals, 1 pair of rcas goes to the amp for mid signals, and 1 pair of rcas goes to a separate sub amp for the sub signal. I can definitely leave the passive crossover in line for the tweeters because that would be a good way to protect them.

Perhaps I started a bit of confusion when I didn't mention I would have a separate sub amp also.

[HifiDon]

I won't be bi-amping unless a 4 channel is considered bi-amping. What did you mean by that?

Originally I was going to use the passive crossovers on the components so I would send 2 channels of the amp to the front components and 2 channels of the amp to the rear 2 ways(coaxes)...separate amp for the sub.

But if I drop the rears, then I would run 2 channels to the tweeters and two channels to the mids. In 3 way, 1 pair of rcas goes to the amp for tweeter signals, 1 pair of rcas goes to the amp for mid signals, and 1 pair of rcas goes to a separate sub amp for the sub signal. I can definitely leave the passive crossover in line for the tweeters because that would be a good way to protect them.

Perhaps I started a bit of confusion when I didn't mention I would have a separate sub amp also.

Bi-amping is running dedicated amplifiers channels to your tweeters & dedicated channels to your mid-bass drivers. NO rear speakers. Like you stated above.

Some crossovers have TWO sets of inputs, instead of one. In that case you would run ALL speaker wires THROUGH the crossovers..Tweeter & Mid-bass. These crossovers only have ONE set of inputs, you can run just the tweeter through them for added protection & the mid-bass bypassing passive crossover.

So:
Tweeters: 2 channels: Amp to RSd crossover to tweeter
Mid-bass: 2 Channels: Amp directly to mid-bass

On your Alpine radio crossover, you will need to Band-Pass your mid-bass drivers. Maybe someone can chime in on the frequency + slope they would recommend for the top end of the crossover settings on your Alpine.
RCA configuration you mentioned above is correct.

[Phoenixcolt]

I won't be bi-amping unless a 4 channel is considered bi-amping. What did you mean by that?

Originally I was going to use the passive crossovers on the components so I would send 2 channels of the amp to the front components and 2 channels of the amp to the rear 2 ways(coaxes)...separate amp for the sub.

But if I drop the rears, then I would run 2 channels to the tweeters and two channels to the mids. In 3 way, 1 pair of rcas goes to the amp for tweeter signals, 1 pair of rcas goes to the amp for mid signals, and 1 pair of rcas goes to a separate sub amp for the sub signal. I can definitely leave the passive crossover in line for the tweeters because that would be a good way to protect them.

Perhaps I started a bit of confusion when I didn't mention I would have a separate sub amp also.

Bi-amping is running dedicated amplifiers channels to your tweeters & dedicated channels to your mid-bass drivers. NO rear speakers. Like you stated above.

Some crossovers have TWO sets of inputs, instead of one. In that case you would run ALL speaker wires THROUGH the crossovers..Tweeter & Mid-bass. These crossovers only have ONE set of inputs, you can run just the tweeter through them for added protection & the mid-bass bypassing passive crossover.

So:
Tweeters: 2 channels: Amp to RSd crossover to tweeter
Mid-bass: 2 Channels: Amp directly to mid-bass

On your Alpine radio crossover, you will need to Band-Pass your mid-bass drivers. Maybe someone can chime in on the frequency + slope they would recommend for the top end of the crossover settings on your Alpine.
RCA configuration you mentioned above is correct.

Oh my gosh, good point, I totally forgot the RSd crossover doesn't have two inputs as many do not. Band passing the mids will be easy enough between the deck and amp crossovers though. Thanks for all the input. This has been very helpful.

[HifiDon]