Phoenix Gold Phorum

Good Day Everyone

Looking to upgrade my XS2300 amplifiers. Have no problem in upgrading power supply caps and was wondering about other upgrades such as signal path caps and op amps. It would sure be nice to have schematics, all Phoenix Gold is preventing is DIY people from making repairs or upgrades.

The competitors will just take one apart to figure it out. I know for a fact that is what GMC and Ford do and in fact one Ford mechanic stated one day that GMC and Ford would steal anyone's solution to solve a problem. Both companies have waited outside the competitors plant with their trucks to load vehicles to haul back to their factories to figure it out. That it is why when one company figures out a problem the competitor also figures it out within 6 to 12 months. Remember the early OD automatic transmission with all there problems and short life, one of the companies figured out to use the computer to control certain functions instead of hydraulic pressure. So Phoenix Gold it would be nice that schematics on older equipment was made available.

Presently I own 2 x XS2300, 1 x XS4600 and one new Ti475 (anyone know of upgrades for the Ti475) One of my XS2300 has a bad gain pot which I understand is not available. From what I read the Ti475 surpasses the XS series.

Overall I have to give Phoenix Gold credit as I have compared my XS2300 amplifier to home audio equipment. Sansui AU-7900 (integrated) versus XS2300 the PG was the better amplifier (a pleasant surprise) both amps rated at 75 watts. Second comparision was between a Musical Fidelity A300 (integrated) was not able to pick a clear winner both amps had pluses and minuses. A300 has 150 watts per channel, all amps where stock equipment no modifications.

On the subject of upgrades and modifications all parts affect the sound of audio equipment. This includes capacitors, opamps, resistors, wire, in fact everything affects the sound of my audio equipment, shape of listening area, materials present, power and even me. Input/output caps can have a big affect on sound quality as well as all caps in signal path. There is no perfect cap, tweaking home audio equipment sometimes I prefer Blackgate and other times Elna Silmic II's. Once I tweaked a CD player and from the minute I turned it on I was not impressed, 5 hours later it was back on the bench and all I changed was the caps before and after the opamp. Had Blackgate on the output and replaced with Silmic II, caps prior to opamp where Silmic II which I changed to Blackgate all values where stock. After the second mode it was a night a day difference, this sucks because installing better parts does not always means better sound. Opamps have there own sound, sure like BB OPA627 but it cannot be installed anywhere, AD8065 are also nice. Hate using IC sockets but it allows for easy changes, sometimes the cheaper opamp will sound better. Tweaked a NHT sub amplifier and in one position the AD8610 sounded the best of all the opamps I tried (OPA627, AD6065, OPA0604) so it is a bit of a crap shoot.

For those that do not here a difference consider yourself lucky you will never have to worry abot upgrading.

I wish Phoenix Gold good luck in their comeback

Hans

im not really sure upgrading an xs2300 would be a a good investment except for a refresh with maybe some better caps, but opamps may not be worth the extra money because thats not really a sq amp. some people have done better caps and opamp's in the 475 with good results im not sure what opamps or cap's they used maybe someone else may let you know what works better for that amp though.

Welcome to the Phorum!

PG hasn't offered schematics in the past because they want to keep shady 3rd party repairs from happening. Instead they offered their own reasonably priced flat rate repairs. Of course there are still lots of people into tweaking these designs, and you have come to the right place to find them!

I am not sure upgrading the XS amps is worthwhile, because they were only a mid tier amp anyways. For the same effort and cost you might as well sell them and buy some higher tier amps like the Ti you've got. You'll get more SQ improvement by switching amps than upgrading the XS.

As for the Ti, one or two members have messed with swapping out the op amps. A side effect of the extremely versatile crossover in that amp is that there are a LOT of op amps that you need to switch out. So these are pretty time consuming and expensive to replace. While they haven't done a side to side double-blind A/B comparison, the difference in sound quality was not immediately noticeable.

I believe the Ti's and XS amps use a different capacitor than the previous PG amps that were known for leakage. So you might not "need" to replace them after all.

the xs series was a nice entry level amp but nothing on the 475.

Glad to hear that Phoenix Gold has a good repair service.

That much difference between the xs and Ti. Never had the Ti hooked up because a change of plans.

Thanks for the information.

Hans

ttocs wrote:the xs series was a nice entry level amp but nothing on the 475.

I've owned both, and they both sound similar (the Ti having some small differences in sound which IMO is subjective and I don't think either one is "better" just different). Both amps will reproduce sound quite accurately and if I were to choose which one to use, I'd go with the one that has the features you need. The main differences are going to be the Ti is fan cooled, has continuously variable crossovers, RDDP diagnostic port, more headroom, and more crossover options. The XS are rock solid reliable amps and sound good. I should know, I have four of them in my Explorer.

from my experience I would rate the Ti as having more power. The xs were nice but they were the entry level to the zx/ti.

ttocs wrote:from my experience I would rate the Ti as having more power. The xs were nice but they were the entry level to the zx/ti.

Yes, the Ti's did have more headroom than a comparably rated XS amplifier.

Here is a excerpt from PG's FAQ Manual: (http://webfaq.phoenixphorum.com/)

Why would I buy a ZXti rather than a XS if the XS puts out almost as much
rated power?
I am sure you've seen the obvious differences in their appearance, the fact that
the ZX has a built-in cooling fan and a variable crossover. But internally is where
the biggest differences are.
The XS series was designed to compete in the largest segment of the amplifier
market by providing a good solid amp design at a reasonable price. The power
supply is tightly regulated to help it make predictable power with a wide range of
battery voltages. So if your power wire is a bit small and you don't invest in
stiffening capacitors for most applications (this is typical with many do-it-yourself
installations), the amp will still put out its rated power. The only compromise is
that musical peaks can't be allowed to tax the amp's power supply very much. So
you could say that the amp has a limited amount of "headroom" for musical
peaks. Musical peaks are sometimes referred to as musical transients or
dynamics. Musical peaks typically last less than 20 milli-seconds. At high volume
on the edge of audible distortion, a tightly regulated design will have a slightly
more brittle and harsh sound as the power supply runs out of energy and clips the
musical peak. Of course if you get a big enough amp, the speakers won't need to
tax the amplifier to its limits and this harshness is never heard. And the ability to
hear the difference between the two lines of amps is very subjective.
The ZXti amplifiers have a very loosely regulated power supply and lots of
headroom for musical peaks. These musical peaks demand high instantaneous
current from the car's electrical system so a good power delivery system including
stiffening capacitors is highly recommended. At high volume on the edge of
audible distortion, a loosely regulated design will clip softer and keep a warmer,
less brittle sound. However, it does cost more to build a loosely regulated design.
Thus the difference in price. We added the cooling fans to the ZXti amps because
of the extra heat generated from this type of design. It's either the fan or a larger
aluminum heatsink and if there's one thing today's market demands, it's big power
in a small size.

This is why I run 75 watts x2 to the tweeters, 75 watts x2 to the mids, 150 watts x2 to the woofers, and 500 watts x1 to the sub using XS amps. By using amplifiers with higher power ratings than my speakers, my amps are not being tapped to their fullest extent and don't get a chance to clip. The headunit clips before the amps do, and using an O-Scope, I know what volume level on the headunit goes into clipping and keep it under that.

so very true its like when my friend had an xs2500 on some fosgate 12's it did have some very solid bass but it was'nt very dynamic then he went to a zx500 and it opened things up a bit. the xs series are not bad sounding amp's but when you step up to the next level there are noticeable differences.

Thanks for the information everyone.

I have always used heavy cable when wiring up car audio equipment but have never used a stiffening capacitor. Will try some stiffening caps the next time.

Hmmm was thinking of running the the tweets and midrange off the Xti, haven't decided if I was going to run 4 x 75 and use the internal crossover or bridge the amp and run with the passive crossover. Most likely will use the passive crossover, clipping burns out more speakers than having to much power. Then use the XS2300 bridged to run a sub but know I have to think about getting a better sub amp. Most likely will only have one sub due to space limitation in the vehicle. Have one Kef sub.

What is a good sub to run with top end speakers such as XTi 6.5" component set or it will be home Audio speakers most likely Vifa or Scanspeak. Did the girlfriend's son car with Vifa tweeters on the dash and Morel 6.5" in the doors powered by a PPI 65 watt amp. Tweeters need slightly larger value resistor as they are just a tad to loud but otherwise sounds great.

Thanks Hans

careful when bridging that 475 on highs phoenix gold watts should not be confused with joe blow amp co watt rating's i believe the 475 is 250 watts rms x 2 those are not peak watts. also when you bridge an amp you gain some distortion and you can do a speaker in with distortion as well as clipping.

dwnrodeo wrote:Yes, the Ti's did have more headroom than a comparably rated XS amplifier.

Here is a excerpt from PG's FAQ Manual: (http://webfaq.phoenixphorum.com/)

The way the Ti "builds" its power differently (triple darlington), and the parts used are are much better. On paper it's the better sounding amp. Whether you will hear the difference is another question. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to run an XS on sub duty... just wouldn't bother putting burr browns in it is all