Phoenix Gold Phorum

I hear talk about subsonic filters all the time, is there really a noticeable difference when using it on our amps? I have never really tried them out.

Is it the type of thing that will allow the subs to concentrate more on the frequencies we can actually hear and possibly give us better sound in that range instead of trying to optimize for the full range within the crossover points?

What is the lowest audible frequency for the human ear? 20 hz or so?

I can truly say that i notice when my subsonic is on. There are times when you cant actually hear anything, but you know that something is hitting your eardrums. Also, the low freq suck ALL the juice out of my battery. True, turning on the subsonic I do lose some definition, but I enjoy the fact that Im not losing all of my power. On the other hand, if Im listening to an unplugged cd, I will surely turn off the filter. It really just depends on my mood.

Science says that we can only "hear" to 20 hz, but believe me you know when something is going on below it.

with properly designed ported boxes, you will notice an increase in bass immediately by switching it on, if it's set right. everything under the ported box tuning frequency in out of phrase with the stuff above the tuning frequency. you will also get up to 8-b more db on the final output in a ported environment.

when i used the xs series subs, it made a big differenct, they would get very upset when asked to play anythingunder about 30, and sound terrable, but with the filter in place they sounded great becasue they could concentrate on "their zone"

Bfowler wrote:when i used the xs series subs, it made a big differenct, they would get very upset when asked to play anythingunder about 30, and sound terrable, but with the filter in place they sounded great becasue they could concentrate on "their zone"

Stop it! You're going to make me buy a bass cube....

haha, it never ends....you are now a junkie. how are you liking those subs btw? how do they compare to the xmax?

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:

Bfowler wrote:when i used the xs series subs, it made a big differenct, they would get very upset when asked to play anythingunder about 30, and sound terrable, but with the filter in place they sounded great becasue they could concentrate on "their zone"

Stop it! You're going to make me buy a bass cube....

You mean you don't have one yet? What rock have you been living under?

I have two cubes!

Of sugar!

And i guess i have two bass cubes too...one is a spare.

Bfowler wrote:haha, it never ends....you are now a junkie. how are you liking those subs btw? how do they compare to the xmax?

I haven't been running the XS subs since I injured my poor M100 (still kick myself every day over that) but when I was running them I really liked them a lot. Last time I heard them was probably 4 weeks ago or so.

Of course, I'm probably one of the worst people to ask about how something sounds because I don't have enough experience with any range of products to make comparisons...

But yeah, I like how smooth and musical they are. Running 2 ohm bridged off the M100, they had both volume and fidelity at lowish frequencies but it's their accuracy and musicality I've liked the best, not overall output.

The Xmax (which I'm running again until Cecil "The Man" gives my poor M100 some TLC) has that punch I like but 100W to a single 10" just doesn't have the output that the ~500W to 2 12" drivers has While I'm not all about output as I stated above, I do really enjoy something that can hit HARD when I'm in the mood.

Overall, I can't complain and I quite enjoy them. I mean I got the XS124 subs and box for free really... I'm sure there's something even more to my tastes out there but I was 100% satisfied with them about 4 weeks ago when I was using them.

Overall comparison? The sound very similar between the two but the Xmax is a bit more aggressive and punchy while the XS is smoother and more musical.

I have 4 cubes and two are unique stenciled one is pink and blue and one is black gold and silver < got it on the SB> Missed the amp though...then I have ca Grey and white and a Blue and white one. The Pink and Blue one has a sub crossover added in by PG I think < like like their work> so its special one off>

You just can't have too many bass cubes just laying around


Oh I got ride of 4 other extra ones I had a while back, and thanks to Brian I got a new control for all of mine as PG seems not to have them any longer THANKS BFowler you are the man !

AVICJR wrote:

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:

Bfowler wrote:when i used the xs series subs, it made a big differenct, they would get very upset when asked to play anythingunder about 30, and sound terrable, but with the filter in place they sounded great becasue they could concentrate on "their zone"

Stop it! You're going to make me buy a bass cube....

You mean you don't have one yet? What rock have you been living under?

The one without a bass cube apparently...

i do, what i can do, when i can do it

Seems like I need to get me a basscube huh????

ericb wrote:with properly designed ported boxes, you will notice an increase in bass immediately by switching it on, if it's set right. everything under the ported box tuning frequency in out of phrase with the stuff above the tuning frequency. you will also get up to 8-b more db on the final output in a ported environment.

whut yu jus said?

yes you will hear a difference but it would only be known if you had heard it without it on.. or if its adjustable and you have it set way to high.

depending on where it is set it will help filter out unwanted low end that may be damaging to your speaker(box design), sucking extra power
from your amp(s) also dependent on your sound goals.

or if your an spl person then you can use it to filter out anything below your tuning freq of your enclosure or car..
again system dependent.

i never use mine because all of my systems are tuned low and i like low end.


i have had all properly built portedboxes and turning on the subsonic didnt do anything to increase my bass output. it actually remove some of the low end but did nothing to give me more bass.

if I respond to this it will start an argument. to most car audio people if the box looks good after it is built than it's properly design. no

there are too many arguments there for me to even start

if you knew enuff about high power and ported boxes you wouldn't make this statement. they have almost no response under the tuning frequency due to the steep roll off and it's also is out of phrase with the output above the tuning frequency. your car supplies the subsonic info

you obviously don't have a properly built box. is the box qtc .7-.5? do the box make port noise. is the port design to not make the sub have too much excursion at the wrong frequencies. do you use fill or not?

the answer is probably no to all 3. most car audio buffs built boxes with one thing in mind. SPL. spl ported boxes tend to break all the rules to properly design ported boxes.

but a subsonic filter will even help them. your box must be jacked up or you don't have the filter set right

if you dont have your sugar cube.....get one....
http://phoenixphorum.com/post27010.html#27010

50 bux...lowered from 70...not bad! decent price

ericb wrote:if I respond to this it will start an argument. to most car audio people if the box looks good after it is built than it's properly design. no

there are too many arguments there for me to even start

with properly designed ported boxes, you will notice an increase in bass immediately by switching it on, if it's set right. everything under the ported box tuning frequency in out of phrase with the stuff above the tuning frequency. you will also get up to 8-b more db on the final output in a ported environment.

are you talking to me?


if you knew enuff about high power and ported boxes you wouldn't make this statement. they have almost no response under the tuning frequency due to the steep roll off and it's also is out of phrase with the output above the tuning frequency. your car supplies the subsonic info

actually i know alot about building boxes and you need to get it right. its phase not phrase,also its starts to have phase shifts a half an octave above and below the tuning fequency.... (give or take)
im not trying to shit on your parade but your starting to piss on mine. depending on what freq. you port it will determine how to use the subsonic filter... will you gain bass from using it,
i never did.. maybe your using the damn bass boost button.
again turning on my subsonic didnt do a damn thing to my bass output other then remove some of the low bass. nothing more nothing less.
again i repeat it didnt do anything to my bass but reduce the lower bass frequencies. nuther thing is the car will help give you low end extension due to the cabin gain but doenst provide the subsonic info of my music. it only reinforces low end freq and also upper bass too.

you obviously don't have a properly built box. is the box qtc .7-.5? do the box make port noise. is the port design to not make the sub have too much excursion at the wrong frequencies. do you use fill or not?

now you are saying i dont have a properly built box, with out even knowing what my box specs are or for that matter what my woofer is
you assume that i dont have a qtc of .7 -.5, my port is making noise or is mistuned or if i use fill. "the answer is probably no to all 3." your words exactly. so i guess my titanium elite 12d in 3.0 ft with a port area of 50 square inches tuned to 30hz is not a properly designed box or better yet my box is probably jacked or something in those lines...haaaa!! my box has wonderful extension down below the tuning freq. it has no port noise and i run 1200 watts into it. again when i turned on my subsonic all it did was remove some of thelower frequencies and you know what as i adjusted it higher something really weird happened..no my friend it didnt get louder but it did for some strange reason started to have less bass output as i turned the knob up untill it hit 300 hz then it sounded like a it had no bass.

must be my crappy box design but as soon as i turned it off fuck me my car bassed again...im doing some wrong here. damn i better leave it on so i can get louder bass.

the answer is probably no to all 3. most car audio buffs built boxes with one thing in mind. SPL. spl ported boxes tend to break all the rules to properly design ported boxes.


oh lets not forget that im not a carudio buff since they build boxes with one thing in mind SPL. oh yeah im sorry that i dont have a one note wonder box that sounds like shit....ohhhhhhhhh im not a car audio buff.

spl boxes ported boxes tend to break all the rules to properly designed ported boxes...how? You need to define a "properly designed ported box."

if im going for max spl then my box would be propely desighned for that application. if i was going for musicality then same thing, it would be designed properly for that application. you are posting an opinion that leaves alot to be told. if i was to take a small ported enclousre tuned high then play low end music that would lead me to believe that it is not properly designed for that application. but it dont make it not properly designed.


but a subsonic filter will even help them. your box must be jacked up or you don't have the filter set right
so again a subsonic filter is a high pass filter that allows you to use it on your subwoofers. hey did i say high pass filter, isnt that a filter that allows all freq. above the cross over point to pass through..

so if i set my subsonic to 30 hz then im not gonna get to much out of
anything below 30hz especially when i play lower freq. it wont give me up to 8 deebeez of output just by turning it on..


oh but my box must be jacked or my filter is not set right...
yeah i run two 15s and my subsonic is set at 40hz and my car isnt louder now once i turned it on..but my subs dont play as low.. yeah must be my poorly designed enclousre that is causing the problem....
another thing you said most car audio people if the box looks good after it is built than it's properly design. i dont know what car audio guys you refer to but i never heard that...so your just blowing hot air out of your ass...

Pass the chips Mas......

ok. since you insist. I noticed that you didn't answer my questions but you sure got defensive as heck. I can tell you this. I can tell from your description that your box isn't design for a qtc in the range of .7 to .5.

you may not be a spl person but that don't mean you know what sound quality is either. most car stereo people don't because they never had anything to compare it to. some people will buy a lot of nice equipment then they will hook it up, then they think that they have good sound.

btw, what music do you tune your system with? yeah. I know. you will post back with some smart alec comment but you won't answer the question. if you do answer you might say an RTA. then I would really laugh. while we are correcting people it's another, not nuther

I'm an audiophile. I love music inside and out. I've also have been doing this for 20 plus year. I have some of the finest home audio equipment so I have something to compare it to. I don't have women voice's having ssssss... added on them. I also don't have group delay.

btw. what is the group delay of your subs?

ideally your subsonic filter should be set just a little under your tuning frequency. but each system is different. I've been trying to hip car audio people to subsonic filter since 1993-94. back then few equipment had it. I had a hifonic's callisto that had an adjustable one. but it cost 400 bucks and back then nobody spent 400 dollars on a crossover. anyway I would take everybody else's acoustic xm-3 crossover and run it through the front highpass section. I would then set the frequency all the way to 30 hz (or 32). I would then loop the highpass output back out to the subwoofer input. I run the highpass section out of the rear output, so now the system had a subsonic filter. this nifty little trick made everybody system that I don't it to, immediately louder. speaker with ebp (do you know what that means?) of 100 or more with greatly benefit from this setup. it had the effect of adding a thousand more watts to the system


now explaining what a properly design port box would take to long and i'm not the greatest of typers. it would really take too long trying to explain it to guy that knows everything. research it.

btw. how old are you. I'm 37. I wondering is it worth even debating this

50 year old Moderator Online !

Hey there Eric. So glad you could stop by.

I will ask you to refrain from your current argument style. You are arguing the person, not the point. The whole purpose of an argument is to have your opponent agree that your point is the correct one. To do this, you need to back up your point with solid facts and persuasive skills.

You will notice that Brenz first came back to you by fighting your subsonic filter point. What are you doing instead? You come back with personal insults. Of course it's going to start an argument! You are trying to debase someone you don't know across the internet, claiming that he has no idea how to build a box because he's just some "car audio guy", and that he doesn't know "enuff about phrase", or that he's too much of a whippersnapper to know anything. PUHHLEASE. This is all irrelevant to proving your point that a subsonic filter increases output. All it does is make you come off like an asshole. Once you start insulting people, of course they get "defensive as heck"! What were you expecting? An apology?



I will now refer you to the welcome post of the forum. Read it, and read it well. Don't forget to follow the links on logical fallacies and strawman arguments.
http://phoenixphorum.com/welcome-to-pho ... vt169.html

Now go back and read your posts. Reflect on what you have said and how they comes across. Ask yourself if this is relevant to the argument or not. Maybe, just maybe, you can learn something.



Now that we're done with that, let's take a look at your point.

"with properly designed ported boxes, you will notice an increase in bass immediately by switching it on, if it's set right. everything under the ported box tuning frequency in out of phrase with the stuff above the tuning frequency. you will also get up to 8-b more db on the final output in a ported environment."

When a woofer plays below it's tuned frequency, it unloads, possibly causing it to pass Xmax/Xmech and damaging the driver. The frequency response also rolls off very quickly below the tuning frequency, typically at a much steeper slope than a sealed equivalent. Because of this, below the tuning frequency you get enormous amounts of possibly damaging cone displacement with very little output. This is contrary to the tuning frequency, where you get the least movement for the most output.

This is why we install subsonic filters - it keeps your woofers from breaking, and it focuses the enclosure on playing the range it was designed to. Because the power supply in the amplifier is spending less of it's energy playing notes that it the enclosure is not suited to, there is a bit more energy to feed to the proper note. This does not equate to an 8 decibel boost however. Where did you get that number anyways?

The rule of thumb is that in order to attain a 3 decibel boost, you have to double your power (or cone area). For 6 decibels you would need FOUR TIMES the power, and for 9 decibels you would need EIGHT times the power.

So, to make about 8 decibels more, the amplifier would have to be pushing out 8 times as much power as it was before... a subsonic filter is not going to do this. A flux capacitor maybe??

Hell, a subsonic filter will only make a noticeable difference in power if there's sound below that frequency to begin with. However your point was such a sweeping generalization that it sounds like you are trying to say that by flipping the magical switch on the thing, you immediately get a huge boost in output over the whole frequency range. That is also impossible.


I could go on and on for ages, but I think this should give you enough to think about for awhile.

1moreamp wrote:You just can't have too many bass cubes just laying around !

That is right, You maybe noticed on the pics I did send you, I got 5 Bass-cubes, hehe.... I had forgot that I had 2 NIB "hiding" in the (PG-)closet, so I bought 3 used on Ebay the other day...

Pedi wrote:

1moreamp wrote:You just can't have too many bass cubes just laying around !

That is right, You maybe noticed on the pics I did send you, I got 5 Bass-cubes, hehe.... I had forgot that I had 2 NIB "hiding" in the (PG-)closet, so I bought 3 used on Ebay the other day...

Pedi, Pedi, Pedi, you are a sick man indeed, I think you belong here with us other weak minded soles that have way too many toys in the closet