99 528i - Ti5 Elite frontstage tweeter substitute?

[ShockTherapy]

Well guys I ended up getting rid of the 3 series and bought an E39. I sold a ton of my gear lately to help out my brother with some issues he was having. Anyway... I just bought a used ti5 set from one of our members to replace the factory crap in my frontstage. The tweeters I'm sure are very nice but I was hoping to switch them out for my Scanspeak Illuminator tweeters. The PG tweet is 4ohm just like the Scan. I'm really hoping for a nice clean frontstage from this. What do you guys think? There are a lot of you guys that have a ton of experience with the Ti sets. I'll be running a Soundstream Reference 705 with 4 of the channels bridged to 200x2 to the frontstage. The sub channel on the 705 will produce 300x1 at 2ohm to a single IDQv3D4 firing through the ski pass. I'm in the process of sourcing a used Reference 200 to run my rear fill which will hopefully consist of a set of ti5 mids. If anyone has a clean used 200 let me know.

Opinions on the Scan switch and how it may effect the set?


Oh yeh... Here's a pic of my new baby. 99 528i Sport Package

[kg1961]

very nice ca! the only problem i have had with the e39, e36 was the location of the lower floor speakers i thought it was to far under the dash and pointing to the gas petal not your head also 514" not 6.5".
again that is just mo. they can sound great but a little work is needed
show some install pics when you get closer

[stipud]

Don't bother, as the crossover is strongly paired with that tweeter. It won't sound right with anything else.

[ShockTherapy]

Don't bother, as the crossover is strongly paired with that tweeter. It won't sound right with anything else.

Hmm. I understand what you're saying. So how is the pg/morel tweeter? I hear it's pretty much an MT-23... am I correct? Maybe i'll just use the set with the tweeters intended for it. I'll put my scans in the closet and use them on my next build. I have my scan 15w Revelators on eBay... didn't even have a chance to install them. The scan woofer is simply too deep for me to remain stock in appearance. I've read that the ti5 set is a nice fit in the e39 bimmers. We'll see how it goes... I'll post pics of the build once I start it. sould be some time next week since I'm waiting on the ti5s to come.

[ttocs]

yes the tweet is almost exactly like the 23 from what I have heard. I too do not recomend mixing/matching componants in a setup of that calibur. You know morel spent the time needed to get that stuff right, I would not F with it.

[The Golden One]

i know every one is saying not to do it and all but they don't have a car like yours, a more open tweeter like those scan's may help things out. i have an older mercedes that is kinda big and open and it respond's better with an open tweeter to fill up that space. experimentation is key in achieving the sound you wan't, i would start off with the ti tweet's to get a feel for the sound and then try the scan's out and see what sounds best to you.

[stipud]

i know every one is saying not to do it and all but they don't have a car like yours, a more open tweeter like those scan's may help things out. i have an older mercedes that is kinda big and open and it respond's better with an open tweeter to fill up that space. experimentation is key in achieving the sound you wan't, i would start off with the ti tweet's to get a feel for the sound and then try the scan's out and see what sounds best to you.

If he's running active, sure. But PG designed the crossover for that specific tweeter. It has notch filters to correct the frequency response in certain areas, which would end up cutting or boosting the wrong area of the frequency spectrum on a different tweeter. Not to mention the impedance is probably quite different, which changes crossover slope, etc. With an active crossover, none of that is an issue, but you would need an EQ and an RTA to get it to sound as good.

Another problem (may not be an issue depending on how they are installed), but home audio tweets are designed to be aimed on axis, while car audio tweets are meant to be off axis. A home audio tweeter will lack a lot of high end treble if it is installed in a standard car location. You would basically have to put these in the a-pillars firing towards you (but that gives a whole whack of time alignment and other issues). Feasible, but complicated.

[ShockTherapy]

I appreciate all of the responses. I'm just going to go ahead and use the set with the existing tweeter. I have some other ideas for the scans. I've read a few reviews stating that the ti5 mids like to be in a small sealed enclosure... I plan on using my stock moulded enclosures in the doors. I will however coat the inside with deadener as well as the outside. The tweeters are going in the stock tweeter locations. Still looking for some used ti5 mids for rear fill.

[The Golden One]

yea your right it may cause the sound to be off. but if the impedinace was close to the same it may not effect the sound that much. and as far as the on and off axis thing goes if the amp is powerfully dynamic like say a phoenix gold amp the sound will be projected out to where it is only effected at very low listening levels. but everyone is not the same and we all have our own perception on sq and the way it sounds, but if you were to hear my system you would think it was a highend system costing way more but it's all phoenix gold. :)e

[dwnrodeo]

and as far as the on and off axis thing goes if the amp is powerfully dynamic like say a phoenix gold amp the sound will be projected out to where it is only effected at very low listening levels.

Wow, just wow. So if my amp is PG, and turned up past very low listening levels then phase doesn't affect my speakers?

[The Golden One]

and as far as the on and off axis thing goes if the amp is powerfully dynamic like say a phoenix gold amp the sound will be projected out to where it is only effected at very low listening levels.

Wow, just wow. So if my amp is PG, and turned up past very low listening levels then phase doesn't affect my speakers?

well no not all phoenix gold amps are equally dynamic and off axis response isnt the same as the phase of the speaker, off axis response is part of how the face of the tweeter is designed. ive had good results with both car and home tweeters however the shear dynamics of my amps are more realized with home tweet's that are properly placed.

[kg1961]

Wow, just wow. So if my amp is PG, and turned up past very low listening levels then phase doesn't affect my speakers?

and this is why we all love pg lol

[The Golden One]

Wow, just wow. So if my amp is PG, and turned up past very low listening levels then phase doesn't affect my speakers?

and this is why we all love pg lol

dont you run all ppi amp's? let's go toe to toe my all phoenix gold amp system vrs your all ppi setup, i dont even care if your using more watts because you will need ever last watt to even come close to my level.

[dwnrodeo]

and as far as the on and off axis thing goes if the amp is powerfully dynamic like say a phoenix gold amp the sound will be projected out to where it is only effected at very low listening levels.

Wow, just wow. So if my amp is PG, and turned up past very low listening levels then phase doesn't affect my speakers?

well no not all phoenix gold amps are equally dynamic and off axis response isnt the same as the phase of the speaker, off axis response is part of how the face of the tweeter is designed. ive had good results with both car and home tweeters however the shear dynamics of my amps are more realize with home tweet's that are properly placed.

Off axis is not the same as the phase of the speaker, but the two are related. By changing the listening path length of the tweeter in relation to the mid (i.e. physically seperated, difference in axis, etc...), it effectively causes a phase shift between the mid and the tweeter. Mounting the tweeter off axis also reduces the output of the higher frequencies which is why some manufacturers list the drivers frequency response at different degrees off axis. Yes, some manufacturers take off-axis mounting into consideration when designing the drivers, but not all of them. So no matter how "dynamic" your amps are, it won't eliminate the lobing effect of a tweeter placed off axis that isn't designed to be. An amp is designed to reproduce all frequencies as close to the same level as possible and if the transducer cannot do this, then you won't be hearing all of the frequencies at the same level.

[ttocs]

I am putting my 5's in my kick panels which are sealed so hopefully that will help. If you want to add an enclosure, tupperware is perfect for a midbass speaker. DAmpen it with some sound damping, but with all the sized and shapes it is not hard to find something that will fit although I will warn you when you bring the speaker to the tupperware section to fit it you get all kinds of crazy looks from teh moms...

[ShockTherapy]

I used the tupperware trick with my Silverado. mounted tupperware on the back of q-form kickpanels and it REALLY helped. This time around my car has small sealed enclosures built in so I plan on deadening them well and using them.

[stipud]

and as far as the on and off axis thing goes if the amp is powerfully dynamic like say a phoenix gold amp the sound will be projected out to where it is only effected at very low listening levels. but everyone is not the same and we all have our own perception on sq and the way it sounds, but if you were to hear my system you would think it was a highend system costing way more but it's all phoenix gold. :)e

No

[stipud]

Elites need more airspace than tupperware can provide IMO, or it will cut into their already somewhat weak midbass.

[ttocs]

and as far as the on and off axis thing goes if the amp is powerfully dynamic like say a phoenix gold amp the sound will be projected out to where it is only effected at very low listening levels. but everyone is not the same and we all have our own perception on sq and the way it sounds, but if you were to hear my system you would think it was a highend system costing way more but it's all phoenix gold. :)e

No

yea I must agree with stipud here..

[ttocs]

Elites need more airspace than tupperware can provide IMO, or it will cut into their already somewhat weak midbass.

I have put many speakers in tupperware enclosures and always been suprised how much of a difference it makes. I really have not found a speaker whose midbass/bass is not somewhat increased with even a half descent enclosure. I am not too entirely worried about the 5's carrying the midbass as that is why I have the 9s.

Have you tried the 5s in an eclosure, and any other speakers in tupperware as well? I have always found the time worth it IMO.

[stipud]

I have put many speakers in tupperware enclosures and always been suprised how much of a difference it makes. I really have not found a speaker whose midbass/bass is not somewhat increased with even a half descent enclosure. I am not too entirely worried about the 5's carrying the midbass as that is why I have the 9s.

Have you tried the 5s in an eclosure, and any other speakers in tupperware as well? I have always found the time worth it IMO.

Yes I have tested it with not just Elites. The difference between free air and tupperware sealed is an improvement, for sure. But the difference between tupperware sealed and "proper" sealed is just as big. If you're wondering how big an ideal enclosure is, just look at a 5.25" home audio speaker.

[ttocs]

ok, so I am confused then as you admit it helps but still will not do it? ah sure it would be great to use an enclosure as big as a small sub box in yer door but ah, well sometimes you need to make due with what you have access too. I also like the way it will keep the back of the speaker safe from the environment of the door since that is nothing more then a nice moist place most of the time. I know when I pull my diamond 6's out of the door after 4 yrs that they will be clean and rust free, chrome will still be shiney too. Keeping your speakers safe/clean/dry is more important then the increase in sound IMO as it means that they will keep playing for a long long time. I have seen dynaudio speaker fall apart after just a few years in a door that didn't seal too well in a viper... $5 could have saved a $500 speaker set...

[The Golden One]

and as far as the on and off axis thing goes if the amp is powerfully dynamic like say a phoenix gold amp the sound will be projected out to where it is only effected at very low listening levels. but everyone is not the same and we all have our own perception on sq and the way it sounds, but if you were to hear my system you would think it was a highend system costing way more but it's all phoenix gold. :)e

No

yea I must agree with stipud here..

ok ive put some morel tweeters on the elite xovers with an entirely different phase plug on them and in some situations it did sound better, ive also put some other tweeters on them that you may not think sound as good sound allot better.

[ttocs]

I do not doubt that you could swap in a different tweeter and maybe even think it sounds better due to the placebo effect or lack of A-b(since the only time we really would swap them is if they are blow) comparison, but the comment about the dynamic amps that will make the sound projected more was what I found funny.

[ShockTherapy]

I won't be going with the tupperware on this one. The E39 has a hard plastic enclosure in the front doors. I plan on spraying the entire inside with spray deadener and putting a layer of Damplifier pro on the outside. The enclosures provide quite a bit more airspace than the average tupperware so I'm feeling pretty confident that they should sound good. As for the tweeters I will be doing an a/b comparison to avoid any placebo effect. I truly appreciate the help guys!