Phoenix Gold Phorum

First off, this is long only for completeness; am hoping to avoid "did you try".

Present Problem:
Clarion Head unit; "music catcher" model - so as few years old but shuts off as soon as I power up.

Couple days in testing prior that: the system (and RTO) was working;amps turned on but lots of "noise" and thumps on turn off - rather loud thumps...sounded likes speakers were "hunting" back and forth then in one fast swoop an undesireable issue of an electrical odor emitted from one driver. Noise essentially maybe from power cables near signal RCA's - that TBD then sorted out; for now bigger problems.


History:
System was "originally" professional installed at a PG dealer albeit years ago in '98 and at that time the HU was a different unit. I updated the HU recently and all was a'ok; HU was working fine and system sounded great before I started this "my" next phase of an update project. Note: reason for project was '98 dealer installed a one amp (xs4300 PG) system running 4 basic speakers and two subs = system without fader controlability.

In my modifications this year I replaced everything but the head unit (at this time). I added the system we see (when you look at the ax204a manual) the one that uses four amps; the TBAT, Ax406a, Ax204a, EQ; this is the one shown in the system schematic of the Ax204a crossover.

With present issue:
The remote turn on relay chatters - the amps never can turn on and I can watch the clarion "hello" message (become) a "goodbye" in a few short seconds. This rto cct is a harness I built/introduced that simply provides the PG components with power+12, ground, and the relay triggered RTO signal the components want. I double checked this harness and found absolutely no flaws such as unintentional shorts, etc. I feel the harness is NOT the problem.

Obviously, a problem however with a system that can't "turn on".
Although potentially symptomatic, it is important to note that my system has dual battery banks; both of which bank are "not" installed due to they've failed and current cost of batteries at this time excludes them until next year maybe from my buying priority list; (this is a project & not a driven or used vessel). Battery bank A consists of a single start battery (only for starting but switchable for emergencies) while bank B is two batteries for running loads such as the stereo, a micro, the refer, etc.. and also switchable for a dead start battery emergency scenario;
When did you notice the relay chatter:
For testing only, I installed some jumper cables to a vehicle nearby within reach my cables to provide my system power. The vehicle was running at idle and actually initially "off".
- both cases produced same chatter.

In fact, upon system power up I noticed a significant "relay chatter" sound accompanied by the four overload lights flickering on the crossover (forget which unit now) this would be my remote turn on cct relay so I hastily shut off the ignition switch! This RTO cct essentially a cct that is fed by the RTO blue/wht wire feeding its signal to activate the relay coil.; +12 volts at pin 30 feeds through pin 87 when relay sets to feed the downstream components. Obvious observation is no devices are able to turn on.
In my observation it is fair to say that too low system voltage or "jumping" the system from booster cables might be an unreliable method and possibly the reason of the chatter...but I doubt it...because:

This vessel does have an alternate source of power via an onboard shorepower ac to 12v dc inverter unit so I also tried that independently and no difference = still relay chatter and radio say "..Bye!". The dc source provided from that unit does power the bank B loads although I don't recall how many amps it has available for running all the devices/especially amplifiers who'll need it after they get their RTO power to turn on.
Curiosity may have killed the cat a couple days prior all this, when I did my actual first initial testing (sans batteries aboard) so I did connect the onbaord inverter and was met by some very undesireable results:
- major system hum and noise then resulted in an electrical odor I traced to one particular (although existing - means it was fine before I chose to tweak things) speaker driver. No significant or noticeable audio/sound was produced and essentially in my opinion I may have blown something inside at least that one driver "up". This within a 30 second period of on time with the inverter as my 12V system power.

So, currently; need assistance to troubleshoot it complete. Important to note that it is unknown if amplifiers are all functioning as these are of course "old school" and sourced off the internet but sellers advised they were all in working order. I do have the original PG amp that I pulled and it "is" known to be working. However, before suspecting the amps; and again the current symptom or issue is the head unit shuts down...before getting the amps any power (the RTO relay does a non-stop chatter - engaged/not/engaged/not/engaged/not) I'd appreciate your ideas here folks.

Please advise what should be looked at for troubleshooting; I have early morning time to work on this now as spouse is sincerely ticked and no longer thrilled with time away on the "projects" she feels should have been left well enough alone - not a good example project so far.
Thanks.

Ok, so post a little too long. The remote turn on cct is working now. What might have caused my speaker (only one appears to have done this) to start smelling at low volume; suspect a bad amp... Ground.. What?

they were smelling because they were not moving enough to cool themselfs when they were "hunting" as you said it. When a speaker is forced to its max excursion in such a situation the coil heats up pretty quickly and again while not moving can't cool itself. I have seen people driver speakers to that point time and time again just under heavy usage and sometimes they can take it and sometimes they can't.

with the install and the vehicle not being new I would recomend going over all the grounds. Go ahead and disconnect them, use some sand paper to expose some fresh metal and then reconnect them. The factory grounds should be done as well, they are normally right next to the batt just follow the - cable off.

The next time symptoms occur, remove 1 piece at a time and see when it stops/corrects itself.

Here is the deal.
From google, I saw that smelling speakers might be a condition of a bad amp.
That is, check for DC voltage coming out of the outputs of the amp.

remember, I have two rte 66 classic limited ed amps. Classic might be the problem! (who knows what it's been through!)
So, I measured each amp independently and found that there is a problem as follows:
With all speaker leads disconnected; only power ground and amp turn on connected:
LHS Rear channel on amp one is putting out a DC voltage of "16 volts???"
LHS Rear channel on amp two is putting out a DC voltage of "18 volts???"
- where the hell is the DC voltage coming from?
The article I found on google said that "any" DC voltage (apart from a normal 100mV) is essentially abnormal and WILL damage you speaker voice coils real fast...which is what happened to a speaker (one at least I am aware of).

The other amp output terminals are all measuring a normal amount.
Also, the smelly or burnt smelling speaker(s) are coiciding with the outputs that are producing the bad (high) DC output voltage. I know for sure as matching up what wire came from the output terminals with the wacko DC output voltage.

So:
My bad for not testing the amps I bough "used". The amps were bought by me over one year ago. The sellers are likely long gone. The best bet for me is to seek a repair expert on this forum who can guide me to repair these amps. May not sound like it but I do have an EE degree. Note: In my degree we never studied car audio nor was I an enthusiast; we did a crapload of math and renewable energy studies which coincides with what the Gov't deems is in demand right now and boy are they full of crap.

DOES ANYONE KNOW A GOOD REPAIR EXPERT OR ONE THAT CAN SUGGEST WHAT TO FIX if (sorry for block letters but stand out) if the LHS REAR output's are F$@%ed up?

I do own a scope and power supplies; should not have taken the sellers word for it. Note: not entirely positive it wasn't me that caused this issue of course; that to defend those in the know in here that might know about these amps. These were bought independently online via eBay. One of the amps was completely re-built replacing all the caps and ic's with bur brown's in the past then used by the seller for a time... so I assumed no issues on that one; took the sellers word on the other who said - amp has no issues. Again, not wanting to offend; just want to move forward and repair the amps. Any ideas?

You can ask eric if he wants to I know he hasn't lately, or at least for a while he's had a lot going on.

As for the Govt, it's what they deem in the next 10 years to beat in demand jobs

Hey thanks! Eric is the guy I was actually going to talk to. I've been on this forum for a few years just never made any appreciable posts. I recall talking to Eric once a couple years back; A real nice guy and I've seen his work via web articles - firs class. Eric actually is the one who did the caps and burr brown ic's on one of these amps e=some years prior for the last owner. I think what happened after that restoration was that the amp owner used it for some time then re-sold the unit after he'd had a chance to give it a good burn in - some time meaning a couple years or more.
I'll see what he's upto; Eric: if you end up reading this; right now I'm as busy as you probabably are but I'll try to get in touch. I'll need to get around to getting these amps back to spec eventuallly just need to prioritize.

If I am reading all this right, you have narrowed the issue down to the amplifier, correct?

16V on one channel and 18V on another is not a good sign.

Do you own a DMM (digital multi-meter)? How about a soldering iron?

It will probably not be all that hard to fix this amp yourself with some guidance.

Please send me an email, dr.fosgate@gmail.com

Man Eric you are Fast!
Yes, I do have a soldering iron; I used worked for a firm called northern airborne back in the late 1990's; that's where I learned my soldering skills.

I am an EE although in my employment I do very little with respect to what a typical EE does.

I have my own oscope, DMM, power supply albeit a lower current one; a good soldering iron etc.

I will send you and email tomorrow from my work as typically that's where I am always at of late; please disregard anything email related I sent via the phorum about one hour ago as I cannot check email at work; they filter forums and I wouldn't be able to reply promptly.

I like your idea by the way indicated here; best bet for me (money wise) is to repair these guys myself as I'm one of those diy types!