Phoenix Gold Phorum

It seems that every so often the topic of Passive vs Active crossovers creeps up and a lot of misinformation is thrown around.

I'm wondering if members would like to see a dedicated thread just on this topic? Something that could be placed in the "How to" section perhaps?

I would be willing to invest my own time to gather information regarding the Pros AND Cons for Active and Passive crossovers. This information would basically be quotes and excerpts from highly regarded books, sites, and or Professionals within the industry. All of the info will be appropriately credited! I will NOT provide my own comments and or opinions on the matter

I'm hoping to put together a nice little package of info that is quick and easy to find within the Phorum itself. From this info, I'm hoping that members can educate themselves over this subject and, in turn, come to their own conclusions as to which system will serve them best.

So what do you guys think? I don't want to invest my time doing this if people aren't interested or simply don't care. I have already done this research myself over the years, and I personally have nothing to gain from it. I would only be doing this in hopes to help others make their own informed decisions.

Thoughts?

it could be a good idea but it all come down to the person installing they can mess it up damage speaker ect by reading info and thinking they know it all?I think it should be up to the person to take it to there local shop/sales to see what will work best for them.
maybe just links to info would be better no one personal ideas just things on paper but than this can and will open up alot of question as some info online is not always right....
also it would go in this section
http://phoenixphorum.com/viewforum.php?f=6
there is not another pro con ect more like how to build try to make fix a problem

I just look back at you and eric going over and over with things and the question was not really related
the question was has anyone had that company build xover for speakers
and his post was:
I am looking at completely redoing my front stage this time around. Im wanting to run a very efficient, but still decent sq. Im not looking to run an active system.Im thinking about just picking out drivers, and have madisound make the crossovers for them. Its really not expensive at all, and I should be able to come out with a killer set for under 200. Obviously I would make sure the drivers work well with each other first, but I thought this may be a good solution to a better front stage, and an efficient one, without a horn install. They seem to cater to car audio quite a bit actually, as they aready have some kits available.

Thoughts? Has anyone tried their custom designs

Sounds good to me.

So long as the information is compiled by someone who actually understands the material, this would be a great benefit to the forum.

In other words Shawn, I think this rules you out.

I suppose you could find the info and bring it to the table, but you will then need someone to take that info and explain it in layman's terms to everyone.

I don't qualify either, so don't go getting your panties in a bunch. I may have a great understanding of the material, but I am awful at explaining it to anyone.

Guys, remember... all this is is placing information in one neat little package for people to easily reference.

As I said before... I'm NOT going to put any of my opinions in there... nor should anyone else for that matter.

This really has NOTHING to do with any threads from the past.

This would only be information that's out there, and brought together for quick easy reading!

Again, this info would be properly credited (with links as well). People can decipher the information from there. It's up to the individual to deteremine wether or not he can apply the information on hisr own, or if he would rather have a professional tackle it. Either way is fine.

Based on Shawn and I’s ranting of the past several days, here is what 90% of the population needs to know about active vs passive crossovers…

-A properly designed active crossover has the potential to sound better than a properly designed passive crossover. The opposite can be true, but is far more rare.

-Running an active crossover may allow you to get more output with the same total power, or the same output with less power, but this is application specific, and also dependent on the music you listen to. It is by no means a guarantee.

-Passive crossovers don’t rob your system of power as many have been lead to believe over the years. It is entirely true that a poor quality or more budget oriented crossover will cause a loss of power, but this loss is often not audible. High quality passive crossovers cause no significant loss, but cost more, and OEM ones only appear in higher end products.

-Designing a passive crossover from scratch is very challenging, and is not recommended for those new to car audio. Building one is easy if one has a proven pre-existing design to follow.

-It is widely accepted that active crossovers are a necessity for the separation of subwoofers and satellite systems. At these low frequencies passive crossovers are nearly useless. The large value parts required are too costly, and waste far too much power.

Also, like I said before, this info would be gathered from "very respectable and highly regarded" sources. NOT some random dude from some no name web site.

For example:

Vance Dickason... World renowned speaker designer/engineer and author of the famous "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook"
Professor Siegfried Linkwitz... also world renowned speaker & crossover designer/engineer
Wayne Harris... Car audio godfather

These are just a few examples of solid sources I can think up of off the cuff... there will be more if this goes through

Also please keep in mind guys... I am NOT going to just provide info that sides one way or the other. The info WILL show the "benefits" AND "disadvantages" of both systems.

Eric D wrote:Based on Shawn and I’s ranting of the past several days, here is what 90% of the population needs to know about active vs passive crossovers…

-A properly designed active crossover has the potential to sound better than a properly designed passive crossover. The opposite can be true, but is far more rare.

-Running an active crossover may allow you to get more output with the same total power, or the same output with less power, but this is application specific, and also dependent on the music you listen to. It is by no means a guarantee.

-Passive crossovers don’t rob your system of power as many have been lead to believe over the years. It is entirely true that a poor quality or more budget oriented crossover will cause a loss of power, but this loss is often not audible. High quality passive crossovers cause no significant loss, but cost more, and OEM ones only appear in higher end products.

-Designing a passive crossover from scratch is very challenging, and is not recommended for those new to car audio. Building one is easy if one has a proven pre-existing design to follow.

-It is widely accepted that active crossovers are a necessity for the separation of subwoofers and satellite systems. At these low frequencies passive crossovers are nearly useless. The large value parts required are too costly, and waste far too much power.

The whole point of this bro, is to take "US" out of the equation! Can you not just except that?

it would be even better to have two people doing the testing as long as we can keep personal attackes out of it. We need to remember that we are dealing with alot of theories of how electronics works no matter how much we think we understand it.

ttocs wrote:it would be even better to have two people doing the testing as long as we can keep personal attackes out of it. We need to remember that we are dealing with alot of theories of how electronics works no matter how much we think we understand it.

I'm not talking about any tests.

Just providing information from well established sources.. the infor would be in the form of a quote and a link to back it up, and or a scan from a book... all with proper credit given to the author/s

Ideally, I don't think anyone should even make a comment. No members would even be involved here. The information would just simply be there for people to read. They can either accept the info or not.

I think it's a fine idea Shawn, but you're really going to have to decide if you want to do this by yourself. I'm not sure if a "show of hands" for "who wants me to compile info" is going to represent how much value you can or cannot bring to the table with your compilation idea. If you think it's a valuable addition to the phorum, that's awesome. Anything you come up with in this regards is most certainly welcome and it will be hosted here in the HOWTO section.

That said, from my perspective I have just as much reason (or more!) to listen to yours and Eric's opinions on the subject than I do from other "trusted" industry pros because I'm not in the industry and myself and I don't have any particular reason to trust "Awesome Engineer from Company X". He could be sharing information that makes his company product seem like the bee knees and others like poop for all I know (I realize this is unlikely). Figuring out whether I should trust these people takes time and effort on my part. Knowing you and Eric from your posts on the phorum and where you derive your opinions from is more valuable to me than some person who I know nothing about and who's supposed to know what he's talking about. I realize that you're probably not going to compile information from untrusted or lame sources but still, I already have a level of trust with you and Eric and zero level of trust with whomever else's information you'll be compiling.

Just my $0.02.

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:I think it's a fine idea Shawn, but you're really going to have to decide if you want to do this by yourself. I'm not sure if a "show of hands" for "who wants me to compile info" is going to represent how much value you can or cannot bring to the table with your compilation idea. If you think it's a valuable addition to the phorum, that's awesome. Anything you come up with in this regards is most certainly welcome and it will be hosted here in the HOWTO section.

That said, from my perspective I have just as much reason (or more!) to listen to yours and Eric's opinions on the subject than I do from other "trusted" industry pros because I'm not in the industry and myself and I don't have any particular reason to trust "Awesome Engineer from Company X". He could be sharing information that makes his company product seem like the bee knees and others like poop for all I know (I realize this is unlikely). Figuring out whether I should trust these people takes time and effort on my part. Knowing you and Eric from your posts on the phorum and where you derive your opinions from is more valuable to me than some person who I know nothing about and who's supposed to know what he's talking about. I realize that you're probably not going to compile information from untrusted or lame sources but still, I already have a level of trust with you and Eric and zero level of trust with whomever else's information you'll be compiling.

Just my $0.02.

Thanks for the input! Comments like this are exactly what I was hoping for only to improve things!

I too think it would be beneficial for others to add quotes and excerpts as well! As long as they follow the same guidelines I have set for myself... If someone were to add something, they too should: Not imply his own opinion, give credit to the author of the quote/excerpt with links to the authors site (if possible), He should also try and grab the information only from reputable/established sources, and finally, only information regarding "both" sides of the subject should be displayed. Not one or the other. In this particular case, the author should provide the advantage AND disadvantage of each system (passive crossovers and active crossovers)

With these guidelines set.. I feel it would be pretty difficult to come up with much (if any) information that actually contradicts one source from the next. The information left should be pretty solid and easy to digest for those wanting to learn.



I understand your concern in regards to the legitmacy of the information from the sources. And your concerns about the possible "marketing" aspect of it all should be accounted for. This is yet another reason why it's only beneficial if "both" sides of the story are told. That being said, of the three sources I have already listed, not one of them could possibly benefit from either side of the fence. None of them have their own company for instance, that makes $$ from selling one or the other design of crossovers (not that I'm aware of anyway)

Again, thanks for the input and hopefully this clears up a few things

We have wikipedia, why not wikicaraudio?

Same setup, people add things and they require citation, and people can run through a dispute process with articles.

Might take off just as much as some of the other large wiki style offshoots.

Great way to sift out the bullshit.

And, if it got noticed, maybe people like Linkwitz for example would chime in.

Then again, maybe something like this already exists and I just spent too much time on this forum to have ever noticed it...

Eric D wrote:We have wikipedia, why not wikicaraudio?

Same setup, people add things and they require citation, and people can run through a dispute process with articles.

Might take off just as much as some of the other large wiki style offshoots.

Great way to sift out the bullshit.

And, if it got noticed, maybe people like Linkwitz for example would chime in.

Then again, maybe something like this already exists and I just spent too much time on this forum to have ever noticed it...

We kind of already have that with bcae1.com.

He even touches on the dispute between you and Shawn. http://www.bcae1.com/elxovsp2.htm

^^

That's true! For the record... Perry is one of my "heros" in the car audio world. This guy has completely blown me away with his extensive knowledge of pretty much everything involved with car audio!! The fact that he deditcated an obscene amount of time to his site, which is free btw, only so he could share the knowledge is really something special in my book!

dwnrodeo wrote:

Eric D wrote:We have wikipedia, why not wikicaraudio?

Same setup, people add things and they require citation, and people can run through a dispute process with articles.

Might take off just as much as some of the other large wiki style offshoots.

Great way to sift out the bullshit.

And, if it got noticed, maybe people like Linkwitz for example would chime in.

Then again, maybe something like this already exists and I just spent too much time on this forum to have ever noticed it...

We kind of already have that with bcae1.com.

He even touches on the dispute between you and Shawn. http://www.bcae1.com/elxovsp2.htm

I was just about to reference that myself.

Anybody else? Not getting too much feedback.

A couple seem interested and a few are just... meh..

ok I feel dumb here. I just read through all of this and am still confused. as some of you know I am doing a full Xenon system this winter. I have 6.5" comps and also will have 5" comps in the front doors. I was told the xenons dont have alot of mid bass? someone said to run them active? I still dont understand what active and passive means. sorry for the newbie questons..lol I just want to have all the info I need when I start my build this winter

SilverGT wrote:ok I feel dumb here. I just read through all of this and am still confused. as some of you know I am doing a full Xenon system this winter. I have 6.5" comps and also will have 5" comps in the front doors. I was told the xenons dont have alot of mid bass? someone said to run them active? I still dont understand what active and passive means. sorry for the newbie questons..lol I just want to have all the info I need when I start my build this winter

Active crossovers are electronic and require power to operate. These do their job in the "pre amp" or "low level" stage, before the signal gets amplified. These can be stand-alone units, part of a processor, or even built right into some head units and or amplifiers.

Passive crossovers are what you would find that come with most component sets (the small box you connect your amp input/woofer out/tweeter out to, via speaker cables) These do not require power (hence "passive") and are installed between the amplifier and speakers.

From what I can gather of your new system, I would suggest (at this point anyway) to stick with the passive crossovers that come with your component set.

ok I understand now. thanks so much for clearing that up for me. this thread makes alot more sense to me now..lol

Regardless of who compiles it, as long as it is direct quotes, from those who know best and from those who deal with this on a daily basis. Maybe from those Engineers that design passives for their companies or the like.

I do want it to be know right now that I am on the side who thinks that passives DO rob energy/power as of all that I have read has supported this.

Shawn,

Give me some Q's you'd like to ask someone in this profession and I will get with Scott Buwalda and get his take on the matter as I believe he feels the same as I do which is why he started out making "active speakers". Only to cater to the market that doesn't want to spend the extra $$ or have the room for the extra amplification did he make the Clarus line. I've talked to Scott a few times and he took the time to answer 20 Q's for me from an old article of CA&E about speaker designers/builders. Given the time, I know he'll help in this manner too.

smgreen20 wrote:Regardless of who compiles it, as long as it is direct quotes, from those who know best and from those who deal with this on a daily basis. Maybe from those Engineers that design passives for their companies or the like.

I do want it to be know right now that I am on the side who thinks that passives DO rob energy/power as of all that I have read has supported this.

Shawn,

Give me some Q's you'd like to ask someone in this profession and I will get with Scott Buwalda and get his take on the matter as I believe he feels the same as I do which is why he started out making "active speakers". Only to cater to the market that doesn't want to spend the extra $$ or have the room for the extra amplification did he make the Clarus line. I've talked to Scott a few times and he took the time to answer 20 Q's for me from an old article of CA&E about speaker designers/builders. Given the time, I know he'll help in this manner too.

That's cool man!

There are not any "specific" questions need to be answered really. I'ld be willing to bet that he has already given some sort of lecture about this topic. Whether it's on his own HAT web site or others.... All you would need to do is basically copy it, as well as a link, with citation and then paste it here in the "how to" section.

I know Scott very well (not personally that is, even though I did meet him once in person ), but others may not know who he is and or his background. So you may want to give a brief background description of his expertise to help solidify his comments.