Phoenix Gold Phorum

So, since this never happened to me, I wasn't sure if the forum was just anal or what, but it does happen! Im just REAL glad it didn't happen to my FAS, or I would be PISSSSSSEEDDD. I was sad that I destroyed a perfectly clean good working amp. Eric D thinks he can fix it, but under inspection, it looks like the other main board had already been jumpered because it has a huge ass hole in it!

Anyway, this came out of my dad's show Mustang, that has been mainly in storage since 2003 after we did a racing engine, supercharger, the stereo system, and an all new paint job and interior refresh. The stereo consists of 2 .3s, one (this one) was running ONLY 2 6.5" Focals in the door pods from 70-300 hz. The other .3 powers 4 5 3/8 Focals (2 in door pod angled at driver, and 2 in rear factory locals) and 6 TN45 Tweeters, 4 in dash pod (2 directly at driver and 2 at glass for image), and the other 2 in rear with their mids... and a .5 running a 12W7 in a custom fiberglass and 1" HDF wood box... Powercore, DRX-9255 Clarion and optical out to changer (to use the BBs in the head unit), 1/0 wire to core and 4 gauge to all the amps (all PG wiring) and many many feet of the blue/silver helix cable that many people on this forum go nuts for. Probably 100 feet on the low side (running 4 strands of it to the front speakers alone, and 2 full strands to the back seat speakers...

Needless to say, when it did work, it sounds f-in unreal... imaging sucks a lil cause it is all shoe-horned in a convertible 5.0 (think Ice Ice Baby), but its so damn loud your ears hurt figuring out where the sound is... At 80 on the highway you can have the top down and not hear the motor or supercharger which makes roughly 800 hp de-tuned right now...

Pic of the car last time it was really driven about 5 years ago...



Anyway, back to the amp. I did some work to the car, and wanted to reward myself to listen to some jams for a lil bit. I click on the circuit breaker and went inside to wash up. As soon as I got to the door I smelled the smoke, it was pouring everywhere and I heard the amp chirping or something which sounded like it was the speakers... I didnt have the damn radio on yet! I opened the trunk carefully and saw the smoke pouring out of this amp, and removed it from the car about an hour later after it cooled off. It burned about 6 inches of my power and ground cables too.

RIP for the fallen Zeropoint...
Top and plexi burnage





This was from a previous owner it looks like... I guess besides it looking like Stevie Wonder did it, it worked fine and I never noticed it until now...




Pics of the drama... Only looks like a couple of the caps went bad in all honesty...












Pics of more or less the good side

Damn bro! Again, sorry to hear this. Let me know if there's anything on the list that sparks your interest!

Let this be a lesson to those who think "O, my caps look fine" or "I slid a piece of paper under the cap and there was no fluid, so they are good". THEY ARE NOT GOOD!

Your amp WILL fail if it is of this age, and is PG, and you have not had the caps replaced.

As for this ZPA, yes I think it is beyond me fixing it. That is pretty extensive damage. There are still a ton of useful parts left in the amp though for bringing other amps back to life.

Eric D wrote:Let this be a lesson to those who think "O, my caps look fine" or "I slid a piece of paper under the cap and there was no fluid, so they are good". THEY ARE NOT GOOD!

Your amp WILL fail if it is of this age, and is PG, and you have not had the caps replaced.

As for this ZPA, yes I think it is beyond me fixing it. That is pretty extensive damage. There are still a ton of useful parts left in the amp though for bringing other amps back to life.

I didnt think you'd want to fix it when I looked at it last night... Its pretty messed up. lol...

Whats funny, is I dunno if its PG, or what, but my dad's McIntosh lasted 30 some od years before it had a relay problem, my Krells are pushing 10 years old and sound phenomonal, is it a car audio thing, or a "lets be cheap and no one will use these things over 3 years" thing?

I wish someone made a car audio amp that sounded as good as a Krell or McIntosh home audio amp and lasted like it as well but I guess no one buys shit that expensive for this hobby...

It's really not PGs fault. Unfortunately PG got a bad batch of caps from Panasonic. Other than these faulty input caps (blame Panasonic) the rest of the amp is solid and, for the most part, uses high quality components.

that amp should be 20 yrs old aready shouldn't it?

ttocs wrote:that amp should be 20 yrs old aready shouldn't it?

Its about 13, but, its been sitting in a car that has an honest 10k miles put on it since 1998...lol, so the caps went bad just hanging out, very very little use.

your saying that your zpa amp was made in 99? When I started installing at my first shop that carried pg in 95 the zpa's were gone and ZX was already available....

Caps has nothing to do here. Loose connection on B+ and B- terminals

these do not have fuses in them right? I would assume you didn't fuse the amp individually directly infront of the amp, what was the fuse in the front rated at?

valeks1 wrote:Caps has nothing to do here. Loose connection on B+ and B- terminals

How would it come loose? It was extremey tight. The amp was never turned on when it did this... Remote power was not turned on through the radio... Don't see anything possible but the caps failing.

ttocs wrote:these do not have fuses in them right? I would assume you didn't fuse the amp individually directly infront of the amp, what was the fuse in the front rated at?

Circuit breaker is a 200 amp. Each of the amps has an inline fuse after the powercore about a foot from the end of the power terminal on the amp. I think the .3s are 80 amp and the .5 is 120... But I'd have to take the fuses out to check. They are the mini link fuses, not bar style. The fuse did not blow...

ttocs wrote:your saying that your zpa amp was made in 99? When I started installing at my first shop that carried pg in 95 the zpa's were gone and ZX was already available....

I worked in a shop in 95 too and we sold MS and M gear... Sold my friend a Route 66 in 96. I think the ZPAs were made along side the white ZXs, and they stopped making them when they went to the TI ZXs which have zeropoint boards...

STROKD wrote:

ttocs wrote:these do not have fuses in them right? I would assume you didn't fuse the amp individually directly infront of the amp, what was the fuse in the front rated at?

Circuit breaker is a 200 amp. Each of the amps has an inline fuse after the powercore about a foot from the end of the power terminal on the amp. I think the .3s are 80 amp and the .5 is 120... But I'd have to take the fuses out to check. They are the mini link fuses, not bar style. The fuse did not blow...

I think He might be saying inside the amp....Just a guess

tonym wrote:

STROKD wrote:

ttocs wrote:these do not have fuses in them right? I would assume you didn't fuse the amp individually directly infront of the amp, what was the fuse in the front rated at?

Circuit breaker is a 200 amp. Each of the amps has an inline fuse after the powercore about a foot from the end of the power terminal on the amp. I think the .3s are 80 amp and the .5 is 120... But I'd have to take the fuses out to check. They are the mini link fuses, not bar style. The fuse did not blow...

I think He might be saying inside the amp....Just a guess

What I gathered was he was asking if the amps had fuses built in the amp, and he was correct, they do no. I also thought he asked if I had fuses in the trunk, and my response was yes...

judging by the damage, it doesn't look like it got very far in the circuit board if at all and with the melted power wire I am not sure the caps could have pulled that much current. The circuit board would have burned up before the power wire would imo......

This is certainly a cap failure. Strokd's description of the event only helps reinforce this. It sounds like the amp has been idle for a while (w/power disconnected) and then the amp burns up only after power has been applied via the breaker. If these caps have been leaking (which they are well known to do) then the electrolytic fluid itself can, and occasionally does cause a short across B+ & B-... It doesn't take much fluid to cause ignition and as soon components and or traces start melting, the problem only gets worse. It's not the caps themselves that provide the fuel (charge) to continue current flow, but rather it's the nearly endless supply from the vehicles battery that allows the "short" to continue conducting current. An inline fuse wouldn't help hear either. You can easily burn up traces and individual components without the fuse opening.

shawn k wrote:This is certainly a cap failure. Strokd's description of the event only helps reinforce this. It sounds like the amp has been idle for a while (w/power disconnected) and then the amp burns up only after power has been applied via the breaker. If these caps have been leaking (which they are well known to do) then the electrolytic fluid itself can, and occasionally does cause a short across B+ & B-... It doesn't take much fluid to cause ignition and as soon components and or traces start melting, the problem only gets worse. It's not the caps themselves that provide the fuel (charge) to continue current flow, but rather it's the nearly endless supply from the vehicles battery that allows the "short" to continue conducting current. An inline fuse wouldn't help hear either. You can easily burn up traces and individual components without the fuse opening.

Well said. And I ran to kill the breaker but the powercore already was energized and it burned till the core was used up... And 15 farads at a slow draw was a long damn time! I didn't think it mattered to pull the power feed out of the core because once it started smoking I had already given up. Lol. I was just making sure the amp didn't actually catch fire.

Yeah man... it's a good thing you were heading right back to the vehicle for sure!!

I thought the power core did not charge up till the remote was turned on?

The caps look like they barely heated up enough to even char the shrink wrap around them. Now those power terminals, those were more then a tad bit warm.... I don't think the power terminals were loose because you can still see the mounting points/screws that mount them and they look straight. Have you had the cover open since last time that might have had something fall in and short those points?

If you are not aware, on these amps as well as the old xtant amps they recomended to NEVER strip your wires above them with the covers off. xtant had lots of problems were just a couple extra strands of wire fell into them and caused all kinds of problems shorting them.

Wow, I just pulled all mine out of my zx500 the other day and none were leaking at all. I'm being good and changing them out, though. You guys made me paranoid, lol.

ttocs wrote:I thought the power core did not charge up till the remote was turned on?

The caps look like they barely heated up enough to even char the shrink wrap around them. Now those power terminals, those were more then a tad bit warm.... I don't think the power terminals were loose because you can still see the mounting points/screws that mount them and they look straight. Have you had the cover open since last time that might have had something fall in and short those points?

If you are not aware, on these amps as well as the old xtant amps they recomended to NEVER strip your wires above them with the covers off. xtant had lots of problems were just a couple extra strands of wire fell into them and caused all kinds of problems shorting them.

Stereo was installed about 8 yrs ago, and I haven't had the plexi off it since...

shawn k wrote:This is certainly a cap failure. Strokd's description of the event only helps reinforce this. It sounds like the amp has been idle for a while (w/power disconnected) and then the amp burns up only after power has been applied via the breaker. If these caps have been leaking (which they are well known to do) then the electrolytic fluid itself can, and occasionally does cause a short across B+ & B-... It doesn't take much fluid to cause ignition and as soon components and or traces start melting, the problem only gets worse. It's not the caps themselves that provide the fuel (charge) to continue current flow, but rather it's the nearly endless supply from the vehicles battery that allows the "short" to continue conducting current. An inline fuse wouldn't help hear either. You can easily burn up traces and individual components without the fuse opening.

I could not agree more. 100% spot on.

This is a cap problem, not a fusing or loose wire problem.

slt wrote:Wow, I just pulled all mine out of my zx500 the other day and none were leaking at all. I'm being good and changing them out, though. You guys made me paranoid, lol.

How do you know they were still good? These caps will short internally as well, and then fail with no external signs.

Ok here is my question if the caps did infact fail, why was the shotty repair work spot melted and charred? Just by looking at that crappy repair job that something came loose or un soldiered under the board over time and shorted the amp out. Was this area already melted and had electrode soot on it before this?

Sure the caps are original and probably were leaking and probably did short but look at the B+ B- internal side that is what took the most damage. After looking at the other Cap failed photos NONE of the terminals on the internal side had any damage like that, Grant it this one has the terminals right next to the powersupply cap bank.



Bummer though such a nice amplifier! I would send it in anyway just to see what could be salvaged and maybe get a finalized synopsis on the acctual faliure was.