Phoenix Gold Phorum

I'm looking at updating my setup, mainly trying to get it 'the best it can be' while incorporating a PG EQ215ix I just picked up from this forum.

I'll start off with my current setup, which was put together out of my old stock and a not-perfect install (I just HAD to get it done):

Sony HeadUnit, nothing too fancy, bluetooth. Front RCA and SUB Rca used

Front RCA goes to ZX450, which i have setup to split into front and rear channels. It goes out to just my rear stage which is an MBquart RSB 335 setup. (link to pics and description that isn't mine http://www.caraudio.com/forums/speaker- ... t-set.html ). I have it wired BI-AMP, with the front channel powering the mid and tweet, and the rear channel powering the mid-bass 8". This gives me some more control with crossovers on the amp itself.

SUB Rca goes to ZX500 bridged to 3ohm on an oldschool JL 12w6.

Amps are powered by independent 4gauge lines from the battery back. They didn't have anything else in stock, and I wanted it immediately, of course.

I have a couple questions about my setup, and how to make it best.

1: How should I best wire my MBquarts? They say "80-200" WRMS on the box. My current wiring should result in a 4ohm stereo load of 75W. Would I be better off disabling BI-AMP and wiring 4ohms bridged for 250RMS? Note that to get to 'clipping' during setup I have to turn my gain way up, and even after turning it down its nearly 3/4 the way up in its current setup. Or can I leave my Front channel of mids and highs 4ohm stereo, but bridge my rear channel for the mid-bass 8"s? Is that possible/healthy?

1a: Regarding my MBQuart crossovers: does bi-amping them bypass the internal crossover between mid-bass and mid? Am I only fooling myself that I am gaining xover control at my amp by wiring it the current way I have it? I can't really find a clear answer online.

2: Would it be worth it to by and run a 2ga cable from my battery back, and then split to 2 4ga? When I finally add a front stage I'll be adding another amp. Should 2ga be enough for a zx350 in addition to my 450 and 500? Or should I bite the bullet and run 0?

3: EQ 215ix: I used to have one of these, till it got stolen. I'm stoked to have it back. How to I best power it? It has a very small power lead. Can I safely wire it out of one of my amps? Would I use the remote delay, or just put it in with the 4ga +?

Thanks if you took the time to read this! I've been in a company car for almost 10 years and it's great to put my system back to work!

Here is the back of my seat:

Here is one item of advice I would like to add....

Either turn your seat in your car around so you point to the back of it, or move ALL of those speakers up to the front were they belong.

How many people go to a concert and look away from the band, or how many people place all their home stereo equipment in the back of the room with the TV in the front?

Eric D wrote:Here is one item of advice I would like to add....

Either turn your seat in your car around so you point to the back of it, or move ALL of those speakers up to the front were they belong.

How many people go to a concert and look away from the band, or how many people place all their home stereo equipment in the back of the room with the TV in the front?

Thank you for the time you took to reply. I'm sorry that my car is not up to your standards. It is a '68, and still under construction while being a daily driver. The front frequently gets very wet, and there is no carpet installed. If you had read the whole thing, you will see that eventually i'll be wiring a zx350 to power the front stage of MBquart PSC213s.

beezel wrote:

Eric D wrote:Here is one item of advice I would like to add....

Either turn your seat in your car around so you point to the back of it, or move ALL of those speakers up to the front were they belong.

How many people go to a concert and look away from the band, or how many people place all their home stereo equipment in the back of the room with the TV in the front?

Thank you for the time you took to reply. I'm sorry that my car is not up to your standards. It is a '68, and still under construction while being a daily driver. The front frequently gets very wet, and there is no carpet installed. If you had read the whole thing, you will see that eventually i'll be wiring a zx350 to power the front stage of MBquart PSC213s.

I would not say that your car is not up to my standards. You are using far better equipment than 90% or more of the population.

It just makes no sense to me to see high end components in the rear of a vehicle.

If you have problems with water in the front, then install some nice marine components. At least your system will sound a heck of a lot better than it does now. It is basically impossible to get a system with all the speakers in the rear to ever sound any good.

Once you have components in the correct location, then worry about an EQ. Chances are you won't even need one.

I am stumped on what to tell you as well I mean there are a few ways to do it but you would probably not notice that the speakers that far behind you made much of a difference.

I'm finding it pretty awesome that the location of my rear stage is preventing anyone from helping me.

I guess I should just burn everything and put a boombox up front!

But seriously: this is my REAR stage. Of COURSE it's in the back. I am not trying to make my car sound like it has a front stage - I'm trying to properly wire my rear stage. I'll worry about my front when I get there, but for now, and the entire point of this post, is how to best setup my rear stage.

Can we pretend these are up front? You don't have to listen, I promise. I just want to make sure I'm using this equipment as efficiently as possible (as a rear stage).

Kinda awesome. I post elsewhere and am told to buy 'modern' gear that isn't 'over priced shit,' so I come to the Phoenix Phorums, and am told to buy marine gear!

Eric D wrote:

beezel wrote:

Eric D wrote:Here is one item of advice I would like to add....

Either turn your seat in your car around so you point to the back of it, or move ALL of those speakers up to the front were they belong.

How many people go to a concert and look away from the band, or how many people place all their home stereo equipment in the back of the room with the TV in the front?

Thank you for the time you took to reply. I'm sorry that my car is not up to your standards. It is a '68, and still under construction while being a daily driver. The front frequently gets very wet, and there is no carpet installed. If you had read the whole thing, you will see that eventually i'll be wiring a zx350 to power the front stage of MBquart PSC213s.

I would not say that your car is not up to my standards. You are using far better equipment than 90% or more of the population.

It just makes no sense to me to see high end components in the rear of a vehicle.

If you have problems with water in the front, then install some nice marine components. At least your system will sound a heck of a lot better than it does now. It is basically impossible to get a system with all the speakers in the rear to ever sound any good.

Once you have components in the correct location, then worry about an EQ. Chances are you won't even need one.

EQ makes a huge difference. I have an RTA and have already balanced my setup as much as I could, and the difference was HIGHLY noticeable. It just can't do anything but get better.

Once again, I appreciate your time in posting, but please spend the effort constructively helping me rather than bashing my rear stage and making ridiculous recommendations like putting in marine gear in a classic car.

I have some basic questions about wiring that I was hoping to have answered, as it's been a long time since I've been in the car audio world. If you don't know or don't care, that is fine, but please don't try to derail my legitimate questions so thoroughly.

beezel wrote:I'm finding it pretty awesome that the location of my rear stage is preventing anyone from helping me.

I guess I should just burn everything and put a boombox up front!

But seriously: this is my REAR stage. Of COURSE it's in the back. I am not trying to make my car sound like it has a front stage - I'm trying to properly wire my rear stage. I'll worry about my front when I get there, but for now, and the entire point of this post, is how to best setup my rear stage.

Can we pretend these are up front? You don't have to listen, I promise. I just want to make sure I'm using this equipment as efficiently as possible (as a rear stage).

Kinda awesome. I post elsewhere and am told to buy 'modern' gear that isn't 'over priced shit,' so I come to the Phoenix Phorums, and am told to buy marine gear!

Car Audio works best when you do "one thing at a time", or at least that has been my experience over the years.

If you take care of the low hanging fruit first, you have less to deal with on the harder problems.

Right now your rear speaker installation is that low hanging fruit, and once you have it taken care of, you can work on other things.

I am not so sure putting a boombox up front is going to gain you anything. Your current chose of components is a heck of a lot better than any boombox I can think of.

As for marine gear, you said you have water problems with the front of the vehicle. I don't think your MB Quart speakers are certified for marine (water) use. I know at this point PG does not make any marine speakers, so I can't really recommend them. MB Quart does make some marine speakers, so you could consider those.

As for what to wire where, once you get your front stage figured out, stereo bridge that ZX450 into it, and use the ZX500 to run your subs. You won't need a ZX350.

I am a big fan of EQs, so don't get me wrong. My point is your installation has so many other issues (the rear stage and water leaking up front for example), that EQ should be the absolute least of your worries at this point.

Eric D wrote:

beezel wrote:I'm finding it pretty awesome that the location of my rear stage is preventing anyone from helping me.

I guess I should just burn everything and put a boombox up front!

But seriously: this is my REAR stage. Of COURSE it's in the back. I am not trying to make my car sound like it has a front stage - I'm trying to properly wire my rear stage. I'll worry about my front when I get there, but for now, and the entire point of this post, is how to best setup my rear stage.

Can we pretend these are up front? You don't have to listen, I promise. I just want to make sure I'm using this equipment as efficiently as possible (as a rear stage).

Kinda awesome. I post elsewhere and am told to buy 'modern' gear that isn't 'over priced shit,' so I come to the Phoenix Phorums, and am told to buy marine gear!

Car Audio works best when you do "one thing at a time", or at least that has been my experience over the years.

If you take care of the low hanging fruit first, you have less to deal with on the harder problems.

Right now your rear speaker installation is that low hanging fruit, and once you have it taken care of, you can work on other things.

I am not so sure putting a boombox up front is going to gain you anything. Your current chose of components is a heck of a lot better than any boombox I can think of.

As for marine gear, you said you have water problems with the front of the vehicle. I don't think your MB Quart speakers are certified for marine (water) use. I know at this point PG does not make any marine speakers, so I can't really recommend them. MB Quart does make some marine speakers, so you could consider those.

As for what to wire where, once you get your front stage figured out, stereo bridge that ZX450 into it, and use the ZX500 to run your subs. You won't need a ZX350.

I am a big fan of EQs, so don't get me wrong. My point is your installation has so many other issues (the rear stage and water leaking up front for example), that EQ should be the absolute least of your worries at this point.

Let's cut to the chase: I currently have a rear stage. Until I finish some body work and seals, I will *not* be installing a front stage - no matter how many people complain about it, I am not doing it until my car is ready for it.

I am trying to maximize the current rear stage setup. i am not trying to spend any money. I am not trying to replace my currently uninstalled front stage for something that can deal with water. I am using my rear stage until the point in time that I can successfully install my front stage.

You think the zx450 will be able to push both my rsb335 and a PSC213? I was already worried that the 450 was underpowering just my rear stage. How can I wire it in stereo bridge? My understanding of bridging is you jump left+ with right- on one channel and end up with a mono signal? I would obviously like to keep a stereo image.

You mention my rear stage is an 'issue.' Are you suggesting to never run a rear stage?

I don't really want to open this can of worms, not so much that I am worried I am going to argue with you about it, but more so that others will jump all over me on it. But, what the heck, here it goes...

Yes, I am advocating scrapping the rear stage. I think that rear speakers can be useful in some situations, but for the majority of people they are just a waste of money.

Here are some points:

-If you want sound in the back for your friends riding in the back, then maybe rear speakers are for you. I once had a 4 door car with only front speakers, and honestly it sounded just as good in the back (if not better) than it did in the front, so rear speakers would have been a total waste for me.

-Rear speakers are good if you want it louder. Using 2 pairs of components (one set in the front, one in back), is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY louder than just the front set.

-If you must have rear speakers, try to avoid using tweeters at all. You can use midranges and let them naturally roll off, or better yet throw a 1st order passive low pass on them to keep the high frequencies out of them. Any high frequencies in the rear is going to destroy the soundstage, imaging and the like.

-I try to advocate to anyone I ever discuss this with that you would be far better off taking all the money you would spend on two pairs of components and buying one better pair with the total money. Generally speaking a $400 set of components will get your further down the SQ path than a pair of $200 sets would.

-Power is part of the deal here as well. If you have say a 75W x 4 amp (like the ZX450), and run it to two sets of components, you will "most likely" be a lot happier with the setup if you did the above and bought that double the price component set, and then bridged the ZX450 into them (around 300W x 2 from the ZX450). Don't worry about over powering the speakers. Running an amp bridged, but way below its capacity is going to be a lot better on those speakers than running an amp at the max you can squeeze out of it, non bridged.

-Another reason to want rear speakers would be if you want to fade to the rear so people up front can talk or something. Personally I don't cater to those riding in the rear of my vehicle. They are on their own, and I am not looking to invest cash into their pleasure the few minutes they spend riding with me.

Now, with this topic, I actually practice what I preach. My current daily driver is an extended cab truck. It has a set of components in the front, a set of lone midranges in the rear, and a sub. I ran all this off a 5 channel amp for about 2 years and really enjoyed the system. Well, about a year ago I swapped the 5-channel out for a 4-channel. In doing so I quit using the rear midranges, as I no longer had a good way to power them. Well, I won't be going back to them. The system sounds much better without the rears, so I have no plans to ever power them again. Some day when I get ambitious I will remove them.

The other point I really try to hit home for people is if you think you need rear fill, build your system without it first and see how you like it. If you then feel you absolutely need it, give it a shot. The money spent on rear fill (speakers themselves, plus amp channels to run them) can be so much better spent on things like an EQ, or better components up front, or the electrical system.

Now, in your specific case, you don't seem to have any choice but to run rears for now. So, run them with the idea of moving everything up front down the road, and then do so when you can.

One last little point here is running rears and running a surround sound system in your car are very different things. If you plan to do 5.1 or 7.1 or who knows what, that is a whole different animal, and you would need full range all around you. I think 5.1 in cars is lame, but that is just me.

this phorum is just not a fan of rear fill, its not that eric or anyone else hates you its just the way this place is. While I am a fan of rear fill a 3 way set is beyond overkill. I am running a 3 way(9-5-1) up front and some 10's in the back, the only rear fill I am going to use is the same 5" componant with no tweeter and not feed it a full range signal either. And the center of my system is controled by an EQ215ix driving the rear signal on the aux output. So with that being said 99% of us are not concerned with the SQ of the rear speakers for teh most part.

Now with that being said - dunno if the 450 would be enough power for the woofers. I would personally be more concerned with getting some type of enclosure around them to get better sound from the woofer then if the EQ would help it. If you use that EQ you will end up needing another for the front speakers if you want to continue to EQ all the speakers and play full range.

In my opinion if ya must use the EQ then go ahead but I am not sure I would say you will gain anything going to a semi-active system using the EQ as your X-over. I am using the EQ to seperat the sub-section from the signal(150hz low-pass) that I will then use teh amps x-0vers to manipulate the signal if its for the 9's or the 10's. With that being said quart engineers spend alot of time matching all the componants in that sweet little system of yours and if you think that you can go active and do better then more power to you. I am using the cross-overs that came with my Ti Elite componanats for that very reason....

I wish I had never mentioned 'rear fill.' My rear is filled with this subject.

My main questions were how to best wire my current setup. I don't care where you'd put the speakers - i have limited options and am doing the only things available.

Where i DO have options is how I wire and balance my components. I am currently Bi-amping the 3-way setup for 2 reasons. Firstly, I can set my own xover. While i know MB spent some time setting up their 3way ideally, they didn't do it in my car with an RTA, so they couldn't know where I get nasty vibrations and cancellation. Secondly, as the 450 is a bit weak for the 8"s, it allows me to up the gain on my 'rear' channel and better match my midbass with the tweets.

With the 3-way + zx450 - could I wire the rear channel (8s) in a bridge for 250w, and leave my 'front' channel in stereo? Would I be better off ditching BI-AMP and instead bridging both channels? IE Front for left, rear for right, and returning to my passive xover?

Question 1-TriMode the 450 and BiAmp the xover.
Question 2- Bigger is always better.(wire)
Question 3-I have never owned one.

RayBuck wrote:Question 1-TriMode the 450 and BiAmp the xover.
Question 2- Bigger is always better.(wire)
Question 3-I have never owned one.

Thanks for the reply. Can you elaborate on trimode, please? I am already bi-amping the xover, so sounds like I might already be setup ideally?

If you can set your own crossover, then, why are you asking these other questions?

Being able to set a crossover (especially with an RTA) is a good sign you know enough to figure out the questions you are asking on your own.

beezel wrote:

RayBuck wrote:Question 1-TriMode the 450 and BiAmp the xover.
Question 2- Bigger is always better.(wire)
Question 3-I have never owned one.

Thanks for the reply. Can you elaborate on trimode, please? I am already bi-amping the xover, so sounds like I might already be setup ideally?

Sorry I am wrong either leave it the way you have it or bridge the 450 and do not biamp the xover. I think the way you have it ran you would have more adjustment witch you have already said,but you should get more power bridged.

I have two sets of the same Mb quarts that you have,one is brand new one is not I wish there was a way to triamp the xover.

RayBuck wrote:

beezel wrote:

RayBuck wrote:Question 1-TriMode the 450 and BiAmp the xover.
Question 2- Bigger is always better.(wire)
Question 3-I have never owned one.

Thanks for the reply. Can you elaborate on trimode, please? I am already bi-amping the xover, so sounds like I might already be setup ideally?

Sorry I am wrong either leave it the way you have it or bridge the 450 and do not biamp the xover. I think the way you have it ran you would have more adjustment witch you have already said,but you should get more power bridged.

That's kinda what I was thinking. I'm at least going to try it bridged to see how it sounds.

I have little experience bridging anything but a sub amp. How do I maintain stereo? Do I just bridge my front channel as Left and right channel as Right? How to I get the correct channels to my amps inputs? Some Y cables off of my RCAs? Or am I being dumb and there is a much better way? Obviously I'm rusty as hell at this stuff.

Thanks again!

Bridging a ZX450 and keeping it stereo requires a pair of "Y" cables as you mentioned.

Set the ZX450 crossover to 4-channel input, and for full range, or high pass.

Run your right RCA to one of the "Y" cables and then feed that cable into both the left and right inputs for the front section of the amp. Use the outside speaker terminals of the front section of the amp to run your right component set. Front gain will control the right speaker.

Run your left RCA to one of the "Y" cables, and then feed that cable into both the left and right inputs for the rear section of the amp. Use the outside speaker terminals of the rear section of the amp to run your left component set. Rear gain will control the left speaker.

Eric D wrote:Bridging a ZX450 and keeping it stereo requires a pair of "Y" cables as you mentioned.

Set the ZX450 crossover to 4-channel input, and for full range, or high pass.

Run your right RCA to one of the "Y" cables and then feed that cable into both the left and right inputs for the front section of the amp. Use the outside speaker terminals of the front section of the amp to run your right component set. Front gain will control the right speaker.

Run your left RCA to one of the "Y" cables, and then feed that cable into both the left and right inputs for the rear section of the amp. Use the outside speaker terminals of the rear section of the amp to run your left component set. Rear gain will control the left speaker.

Thanks for the confirmation. In my vague memories that is how I imagined it, but I didn't wanna fuck anything up.

One more 450 wiring question: Can I keep my current BI-AMP setup, with the 4/tweet on the front and the 8's on the rear, but mono bridge only the rear channel? I've heard that running 4ohms up front and 2 ohms in the rear can lead to imbalance in the amp and is not good, that most of the power would end up overdriving the 2ohm load. Is this the case, or would a mono-bridge on my rear channel be a 4ohm load and therefore balanced?

Yes you can run dissimilar loads on a 4-channel. They are designed for it.

So long as the combined output of your amplifier does not exceed the total power rating of the amplifier, AND no channels exceed their output ratings, your amp will be just fine.

If you ran just one of the 4 channels on your ZX450 into a 0.5ohm load, you could in theory get 600W or so to that channel. Well, the amp has more than enough power supply for this, but the output section of the amp can't handle it, so there is a great possibility one of the output transistors would fail.

If you ran all 4 channels into 1 ohm loads (something the amp is rated to do actually), you would be drawing enough power that the power supply becomes the weak link.

Running two channels into 4 ohm loads and two more bridged into a single 4 ohm load is really only using the amp to 75% capacity. This condition will get you more reliability, and possibly better sound quality than running the amp at 100% capacity.

Eric D wrote:Yes you can run dissimilar loads on a 4-channel. They are designed for it.

So long as the combined output of your amplifier does not exceed the total power rating of the amplifier, AND no channels exceed their output ratings, your amp will be just fine.

If you ran just one of the 4 channels on your ZX450 into a 0.5ohm load, you could in theory get 600W or so to that channel. Well, the amp has more than enough power supply for this, but the output section of the amp can't handle it, so there is a great possibility one of the output transistors would fail.

If you ran all 4 channels into 1 ohm loads (something the amp is rated to do actually), you would be drawing enough power that the power supply becomes the weak link.

Running two channels into 4 ohm loads and two more bridged into a single 4 ohm load is really only using the amp to 75% capacity. This condition will get you more reliability, and possibly better sound quality than running the amp at 100% capacity.

Great. Thanks for the breakdown. Would I be best wiring the 8's in parallel or series? I would assume parallel would maintain the 4ohms of the speakers? This is my weakest point, as I've never studied this indepth.

i have the same amps (black ones) like you and remember a simular setup with old boston pro speakers....

it is really simple.... if you just will use the zx450 for it, brigde front and rear and use them for left and right

on the threewaysystem. if you want to integrate another zx350, use the crossover in bi-amp, and put the zx350

on the mid and high, and use the zx450 also brigded front and rear both on a 8 inch.....this will give you the best

result.... or you can go total active with 450 and 500, 450 front on tweeter, rear on mid and the 500 on the two 8inch.

then you need another subamp of course..... i suggest you put a very good battery in the back to give the zx amps

the current they need when you wanna play louder.....

for the rest of you car if you want to move the mb quart set to the front, so with the water problem solved of course,

i suggest you call first XZIBIT ,to PIMP YOUR RIDE !!!!!!

zeropoint0.5 wrote:i have the same amps (black ones) like you and remember a simular setup with old boston pro speakers....

it is really simple.... if you just will use the zx450 for it, brigde front and rear and use them for left and right

on the threewaysystem. if you want to integrate another zx350, use the crossover in bi-amp, and put the zx350

on the mid and high, and use the zx450 also brigded front and rear both on a 8 inch.....this will give you the best

result.... or you can go total active with 450 and 500, 450 front on tweeter, rear on mid and the 500 on the two 8inch.

then you need another subamp of course..... i suggest you put a very good battery in the back to give the zx amps

the current they need when you wanna play louder.....

for the rest of you car if you want to move the mb quart set to the front, so with the water problem solved of course,

i suggest you call first XZIBIT ,to PIMP YOUR RIDE !!!!!!

That seems to be the setup to try next. If I need to get back active control of my 8to5 crossover I'll go back to bi-amping with the front and rear channels.

Also, yes yes, you are a very funny man. I'll bet my car still gets more attention than yours, wet or not

beezel wrote:

zeropoint0.5 wrote:i have the same amps (black ones) like you and remember a simular setup with old boston pro speakers....

it is really simple.... if you just will use the zx450 for it, brigde front and rear and use them for left and right

on the threewaysystem. if you want to integrate another zx350, use the crossover in bi-amp, and put the zx350

on the mid and high, and use the zx450 also brigded front and rear both on a 8 inch.....this will give you the best

result.... or you can go total active with 450 and 500, 450 front on tweeter, rear on mid and the 500 on the two 8inch.

then you need another subamp of course..... i suggest you put a very good battery in the back to give the zx amps

the current they need when you wanna play louder.....

for the rest of you car if you want to move the mb quart set to the front, so with the water problem solved of course,

i suggest you call first XZIBIT ,to PIMP YOUR RIDE !!!!!!

That seems to be the setup to try next. If I need to get back active control of my 8to5 crossover I'll go back to bi-amping with the front and rear channels.

Also, yes yes, you are a very funny man. I'll bet my car still gets more attention than yours, wet or not

Don't get upset of course !!! I've seen that program multiple times and it always amazing how they bring back an older car to live......

Just try out the advice the people gave you here in this topic.....they tell it to help you !!! succes with it !!