Ported vs Sealed, lets open this can of worms. lol

[ttocs]

[/quote]

Holy Christ man!!! Do you even read my posts!!?? For the third time and I'll put it in bold in hopes you won't miss it again.... the vented enclosure design is NOT exempt from "margin of error"!!! in fact it is more of a problem compared to sealed!!! JESUS... PLEASE READ AND COMPREHEND THE PREVIOUS POSTS BEFORE DEBATING!!![/quote]


Ok so now your saying that ported boxes have a higher margin of err?

[shawn k]

Dude, your ignorance is showing. "Margin of error" is a pretty standard explaination of an "acceptable degree of variance", 2 seconds on gogle would have given you that answer. Not to mention it is a huge significance to anything in the built environment. It is just as important to sealed boxes as it is to ported boxes, the ONLY difference is the ported must be closer to spec to operate as designed, thus LESS margin for error, where as the sealed has a little wiggle room and still have very similar results to as designed, thus more margin for error.
Shortcut is not the right term here, if anything shortcuts are not modeling a box & just building it based off recommendations or size available. You want to know what you'll get? Don't take a shortcut & model the damn thing.
You design a custom fit FG box for a car and estimate that internal volume before hand to within 10% of the actual. Few if anyone can do that, thus why most boxes like this end up sealed, because it's much easier to estimate to within 30% of actual. It isn't a matter of shortcuts, or even lack of ability, it's just how shit is.

I'm building a mostly fiberglass truck box that will be ported, for 6 8's and the shape is way to complex to calculate or even estimate what the volume will be. I've had to measure as I go, and the only option I have is to plan for less volume and try to tune the port for whe I want. At least this way when the volume is wrong from designed it will be larger than planned, so if any variances occur the tuning will shift downward a hair vs upward. This is also a judgement call, and because my tuned freq is kinda on the high side, I'd much prefer it to shift down than up. No shortcuts taken by me, and I'm more than capable of building enclosures, but this shit applies to everyone.

Don't worry bro. The thing is that there are a few guys around here who will simply argue to the ends even when the facts are stacked up against them. They seem to like to argue just for the sake of arguing. the unfortunate thing is that this kind of attitude can really deflate a good debate and diminish what would otherwise be a good thread full of great info.

I can assure you that you did a nice job with your examples in this thread, and for the most part, I share your views. WinISD is a powerful tool, and true car audio enthusiasts really should take advantage of it. I've been using it for about a decade, and man, what a tool! There's really no excuse for box builders not to get aquainted with the program... I mean hey, it's free afterall!!

[ttocs]

2 secs on google searching "margin of err"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margin_of_error

the #2 top post has a calculator you can use for your boxes I guess

http://americanresearchgroup.com/moe.html

#3 - http://www.democraticunderground.com/?c ... &pid=77024

maybe your 2 secs is different then mine.

Now again Shawn just above you said that now ported boxes have a higher margin of err the sealed boxes?

[shawn k]

Now again Shawn just above you said that now ported boxes have a higher margin of err the sealed boxes?

Wait.. what?? No I certainly didn't!

Let me put this painfully simplistic for you:

Sealed enclosures have a higher tolerance for error (higher acceptable margin for error)

Vented enclosures have a lower tolerance for error (lower acceptable margin for error)

There, now let's see what kind of misquotes you come up with for these!

[audiophyle_247]

Don't worry bro.

Believe me I dont, well maybe not for a few choice members (ignorance is bliss right?).
I do worry for those who stumble into this thread wanting to learn, and it needs to be painfully clear what the truth is among all this BS.

Ive always believed those who dislike ported enclosures have never heard a properly designed one.
Because once they do they will never be happy with sealed again. lol

[shawn k]

Believe me I dont, well maybe not for a few choice members (ignorance is bliss right?).
I do worry for those who stumble into this thread wanting to learn, and it needs to be painfully clear what the truth is among all this BS.

Actually, that's how I feel as well. Which is also why it's hard for me to just "brush it off" when the ignorance does hit. I hate it when poor information is strewn about, but it's even worse when people try to debate on topics which they have very little (if any) experience/knowledge for the topic at hand. Believe me man, I've been in more than a few heated discussions on this forum that has been like that

[ttocs]

Don't worry bro.

Believe me I dont, well maybe not for a few choice members (ignorance is bliss right?).
I do worry for those who stumble into this thread wanting to learn, and it needs to be painfully clear what the truth is among all this BS.

Ive always believed those who dislike ported enclosures have never heard a properly designed one.
Because once they do they will never be happy with sealed again. lol

I have probably built and listened to more enclosures then you have modeled, and this doesn't even include the countless other systems I got to help build on and enjoy listening too built by some of the industries best over the years I worked. Its sad when members like eric and myself are chased off by kids that have read 10x more about what sounds good then they have actually listened too and do not get the irony in that statement. We are talking an apples to apples comparison so to say "sealed has a higher margin of err because of funky fiberglass boxes" is just silly since ported boxes have the same real world limitations. We have been talking ideal enclosures anyway so to suddenly throw this crap in and preach like its been gospel for centuries is not only wrong but has no basis in this discussion really.

I did a search for margin of err on enclosure building as well and

http://www.bing.com/search?q=margin+of+ ... 5&sp=1&sk=

[ttocs]

Believe me I dont, well maybe not for a few choice members (ignorance is bliss right?).
I do worry for those who stumble into this thread wanting to learn, and it needs to be painfully clear what the truth is among all this BS.

Actually, that's how I feel as well. Which is also why it's hard for me to just "brush it off" when the ignorance does hit. I hate it when poor information is strewn about, but it's even worse when people try to debate on topics which they have very little (if any) experience/knowledge for the topic at hand. Believe me man, I've been in more than a few heated discussions on this forum that has been like that

keep skoolin us and sooner or later its gonna get even quieter here. Can't figure out where everyone has been going since april 2010 here?

I might be a little more real-world/hands on person then you in your modelling-everything-perfectly-world(except for funky fiberglass boxes) but I have not been nearly as upset by it as you for some reason. I have called your idea silly or funny the way you twist them but I would not go as far as to call them ignorant.

you can change the technical terms you use if you want, doesn't really change what you say though.

[shawn k]

Ive always believed those who dislike ported enclosures have never heard a properly designed one.
Because once they do they will never be happy with sealed again. lol

I've always been an advocate for vented enclosures as well. However, some drivers just simply don't lend themselve's well for vented designs and you might be stuck with what you have. There's also the possibility the the vented enclosure may be too large for given space available. These are just some of the real world dilemas where a sealed enclosure may be the solution.

However, I do agree with you that vented boxes do seem to have this "stigma" about them that often gives them a bad wrap. I'm with you when it comes down to it though. "If" the space is availble, AND the driver's parameters are suited for a vented enclosure then yes, I believe that it's most beneficial to choose ported over sealed. (as long as you, or your box builder can execute the build correctly )

[ttocs]

just out of curiosity, what percentage of installers(DIY or pro) do you think can design and build a proper ported enclosure? What does that do to your margin of err? - Now remember my comment that started all of this was how a sealed enclosure can have a higher margin of err?

Thanks I am done.

[shawn k]

Don't worry bro.

Believe me I dont, well maybe not for a few choice members (ignorance is bliss right?).
I do worry for those who stumble into this thread wanting to learn, and it needs to be painfully clear what the truth is among all this BS.

Ive always believed those who dislike ported enclosures have never heard a properly designed one.
Because once they do they will never be happy with sealed again. lol

I have probably built and listened to more enclosures then you have modeled, and this doesn't even include the countless other systems I got to help build on and enjoy listening too built by some of the industries best over the years I worked. Its sad when members like eric and myself are chased off by kids that have read 10x more about what sounds good then they have actually listened too and do not get the irony in that statement. We are talking an apples to apples comparison so to say "sealed has a higher margin of err because of funky fiberglass boxes" is just silly since ported boxes have the same real world limitations. We have been talking ideal enclosures anyway so to suddenly throw this crap in and preach like its been gospel for centuries is not only wrong but has no basis in this discussion really.

I did a search for margin of err on enclosure building as well and

http://www.bing.com/search?q=margin+of+ ... 5&sp=1&sk=

LOL.. are you talking to me? Please man, please. If you want to throw down who has more credentials, I'm all for it!

[ttocs]

while I realize that you had 3 whole words quoted in that post to confuse you, put yer E-pecker back in your pants I was talking to your lackey. I can recognize that you have some real world experience just like I can tell he has little to none.

[audiophyle_247]

while I realize that you had 3 whole words quoted in that post to confuse you, put yer E-pecker back in your pants I was talking to your lackey. I can recognize that you have some real world experience just like I can tell he has little to none.

Lol, is it name calling time now?
You know nothing about me or my experience, and thanks for sharing but your opinion of me means about as much as the knowledge you've brought into this thread (which is nothing, In case you missed where that comment was heading).

The fact that you cannot grasp the simple concept of "margin of error" tells me all I need to know about all the systems you've ever designed.
Years of doing shit wrong doesn't make you better than me at anything other than f**king shit up. (which I'll gladly give you rep for)

And thank you for disrespecting my wishes in keeping this thread civil (which I said in the very first post), but I should have known that dropping a little knowledge often infuriorates the intolerant & ignorant.

[shawn k]

but I should have known that dropping a little knowledge often infuriorates the intolerant & ignorant.

Precisely !

[Eric D]

Why do you guys (shawn k and audiophyle_247 specifically) think that when someone disagrees with you they are automatically ignorant?

Isn't that method of living life the very definition of ignorant itself?

The Internet and forums such as this can be pretty hard to explain ones self on. Especially so in a heated debate, where tensions run high.

Over half the time I argue with you Shawn, I could show you in person the whole point I am trying to make in a few minutes. Trying to explain every last detail becomes an impossibility when you twist everything around to your advantage, or make false claims. And yes, you have been WRONG on at least one occasion before. You don't know everything there is to know about car audio, nor are you flawless at explaining yourself. If you did know everything about car audio, I am pretty sure we would have the privilege of reading about you in car audio magazines, or know of you from technical papers you have published, etc. But, outside of this forum you really don't even exist.

It is pretty obvious you do know a ton about car audio. I am pretty sure you also know a lot more about car audio than I do. However, it has become apparent over the years, you don't know as much about electronics as I do, and when you combine your knowledge of audio with your knowledge of electronics, you make mistakes. So, be a man, admit you are not perfect. Stop beating a dead horse...

STOP BEING IGNORANT!

Now, as for this whole drawn out thread, it is pretty apparent to me the issue here is how you guys are explaining things and interpreting things. Nobody seems ignorant to me. I just think there is some confusion. If someone does not do a great job explaining themselves, and someone else does not interpret it correctly, there still are no grounds for talking down to others.

As for the whole topic of sealed vs ported, I stand by my position that each has its own use, and neither is always the way to go.

You guys with your subwoofer modeling can keep having fun running in circles. Modeling works best for home audio or "open field" applications. Often in car audio, modeling will steer you in the wrong direction. Modeling can work when certain conditions are met, one of which is knowing an accurate transfer function of the cabin of the vehicle. This requires an RTA at the very least, and for better results something more advanced would be desirable (like a swept sine analyzer, or a gated response analyzer). With most modeling software, results would vary drastically between putting the system in a compact car, vs a large SUV.

[kg1961]

shawn,ttoc,eric love it guys keep it going
i vote bandpass just kidding old school..lol

i idn't read the first page but was a sub named,amp and car? also music listened to
imo this can change the set up

[Eric D]

shawn,ttoc,eric love it guys keep it going
i vote bandpass just kidding old school..lol

i idn't read the first page but was a sub named,amp and car? also music listened to
imo this can change the set up

You just brought up a huge point, "music listened to".

What I listen to is the primary reason I don't use ported boxes in my personal car audio installations, but shockingly enough for the same reason I do primarily use ported designs in my home stereo projects. The environments are radically different, so to get the same goal often different methods must be used.

Depending on what audiophyle_247 listens too, I can understand why he feels so strongly about the use of ported enclosures. However, this in no way makes ported enclosures better for everyone, only him and anyone else who has similar tastes as he does.

[Starunit10]

In an old reg cab pickup I had, there were 4 12" IMPP 's in a bandpass enclosure with a blow through to the cab powered by a huge rodek. That mother rumbled like you wouldn't believe and I am sure, the reason why I need to say "what" every time I have a conversation with someone now. I was a bass head then, and I loved it !!

I am now older and do not desire that deep of rumble.

I now enjoy a more balanced sound which the sealed box works for me best now.

Ported vs Sealed ? Two different monsters I say! Each has a purpose, mine was to knock pictures off the walls and it did !

+ =

[Eric D]

This post is more specifically directed to ttocs.

Since you seem to be falling into the same issues with shawn k that I have, here is some friendly advice on how to handle it.

I too don't often read shawn k's post in full. I follow a simple formula.

-Read the first sentence he posts
-Read the last
-Count the number of paragraphs he uses
-Count the number of emoticons (similes, angry faces, etc) that he uses in the post
-If the quantity of emoticons is less than the quantity of paragraphs, then there is a good chance he is in agreement with you.
-At this point you can make a response based on the first and last sentences of his posts, or even read his post in full.
-If the quantity of emoticons is greater than or equal to the amount of paragraphs, then there is a 90% probability he is not in agreement with you and the body of his post is just littered with condescending remarks, and factual inaccuracies.
-At this point you can continue the rant with what ever you choose, or give up and move on to a thread that actually has a purpose.

But above all, it is important to remain focused and calm.

[ttocs]

This post is more specifically directed to ttocs.

Since you seem to be falling into the same issues with shawn k that I have, here is some friendly advice on how to handle it.

I too don't often read shawn k's post in full. I follow a simple formula.

-Read the first sentence he posts
-Read the last
-Count the number of paragraphs he uses
-Count the number of emoticons (similes, angry faces, etc) that he uses in the post
-If the quantity of emoticons is less than the quantity of paragraphs, then there is a good chance he is in agreement with you.
-At this point you can make a response based on the first and last sentences of his posts, or even read his post in full.
-If the quantity of emoticons is greater than or equal to the amount of paragraphs, then there is a 90% probability he is not in agreement with you and the body of his post is just littered with condescending remarks, and factual inaccuracies.
-At this point you can continue the rant with what ever you choose, or give up and move on to a thread that actually has a purpose.

But above all, it is important to remain focused and calm.

lol. Its not too hard to figure out when someone is too much theory and not enough hands on. Modelling can't be right?! Say it ain't so bro!!!!

[kg1961]

[audiophyle_247]

Eric, for the most part I agree with you, and give you credit on your vast knowledge of electronics & repair.

Ignorant by definition is "the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or unknowing" so yes life is all about ignorance, however there is a difference between being ignorant and wanting to remain ignorant. I will be the first to say when I don't know something, but I do not argue rediculous claims about something I clearly don't understand. The topic of acceptable error has been beyond beaten to death, while being explained as clearly as possible. "You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink."
If someone truly doesn't understand what has been said, why take a stance & argue blindly instead of just asking for a little more clarification?

I wouldnt argue with you to no end about why I should use some random transistor or non-fused resistor to repair an amp because they are "close enough" to oe spec, when it's pretty evident I dont understand the full ramifications of my argument. (that is just an example, Cecil has been an enormous help with my understanding of repairing amps, but I'm still no pro).

We are not cavemen, we have written language. It is upon ourselves to learn how to use such a tool to convey our ideas to other people, whether they are standing in front of us, talking over the phone, or typing a response in an email or forum. Now I agree with you on technical things are easier to understand in person (I myself am a better hands-on learner) but ability to convey your thoughts & ideas in a clear manner, regardless of complexity, is a challenge we should all take on head first. I have friends who text random shit that makes no sense, but I don't argue with them, I just reply "in English please".

As for the whole topic of sealed vs ported, I stand by my position that each has its own use, and neither is always the way to go.

You guys with your subwoofer modeling can keep having fun running in circles. Modeling works best for home audio or "open field" applications. Often in car audio, modeling will steer you in the wrong direction. Modeling can work when certain conditions are met, one of which is knowing an accurate transfer function of the cabin of the vehicle. This requires an RTA at the very least, and for better results something more advanced would be desirable (like a swept sine analyzer, or a gated response analyzer). With most modeling software, results would vary drastically between putting the system in a compact car, vs a large SUV.

Now, enclosure modeling def needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Cabin transfer function can be a bitch, BUT it remains a constant when you are comparing enclosures in a single vehicle because it will effect all enclosures equally for that vehicle, and in that capacity it is a priceless tool.

Modeling also tells you what kind of signal delay you will hear & what size the port needs to be to avoid turbulence & noise issues. So while it is true you cannot expect certain results when going in blind (ie no previous enclosure to compare with) it can eliminate the risks of port noise and turbulence, and give you a pretty general idea of what to expect. Now, if you do have an existing enclosure to compare with, you just need to model the old & new and tune it around where the existing setup was lacking. That can be done easily without needing an RTA to get pretty close to ideal performance after transfer function.

The benefits of ported are HUGE, and the point of this thread. But if it's not possible to fit a ported then sealed can perform great too, it just won't be as efficient or as loud.

I listen to just about everything, from death metal and old classic rock, to orchestral composures and the occasional dubstep. My love for ported is in using small subs, running an 8" in a low tuned flat response box. This way I can get much louder 25~35hz bass not typical of an 8" sub, while its output at 45~65hz remains identical to what a sealed box provides. I am by no means a bass head, but I do love getting the most out of everything, and doing a lot with a little.

[ajaye]

Just to beat the OTHER dead horse in this thread a little further, I'll paraphrase one of the philosophies of Oswald Spengler...You can't discount someone's ideas as ignorant just because they don't seem relevant now, you have to consider whether they were relevant at the time they were had and/or based on facts of that time. As someone who has stepped away and re-entered car audio after almost 15 years, understand that shit is pretty much night and day comparing then to now. Looking back, I can't even imagine how insane some of the systems my friends would have built if we had the tools so easily accessible then that we do now. But we didn't, so we just constantly bought/sold/traded to audition and find what works. And I'm talking like people having 3 different setups in the matter of a weekend, just figuring shit out. And most of the time you were going "man this bangs but that shit I traded a week ago for the shit I traded a couple days ago for the shit I just sold to buy this shit was still the best so far."

Let me put it to you this way, if you bought an album and listened to it every day for 20 years, then after 20 years you bought a remastered copy of the same album that said in the liner notes that some of the vocalist's track was a bit flat and they shifted those flat parts to pitch-perfect, which one would be correct? The one that you listened to for 20 years and your ears tell you is correct, or the new one that the liner notes tell you is correct?

I'm not really trying to say anyone is right or wrong, just to consider what peoples' arguments are and why they argue them, and maybe there is something else you can learn or at the very least agree to disagree amicably. We are on a very specialized discussion forum, and people here are passionate about the topics at hand. If we all knew all the exact same shit, what would be the point?

[Eric D]

Now, enclosure modeling def needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Cabin transfer function can be a bitch, BUT it remains a constant when you are comparing enclosures in a single vehicle because it will effect all enclosures equally for that vehicle, and in that capacity it is a priceless tool.

I am not trying to pick apart your argument, but this statement is well worth looking at.

The transfer function does not remain constant, unless all environmental variables remain constant. If you switch from a 1cuft sealed box to a 2.5cuft ported one, the change in box volume will affect the cabin volume as a system, unless you built the installation to wall off the enclosure in the trunk for instance. This is actually something I have done in installations. I have build sealed walls with a hole to bolt the box up too, such that different boxes could be constructed without changing the transfer function of the cabin.

But what does all this matter if you roll down the window and everything changes? Or if someone rides with you and everything changes?

Years ago when I started learning about acoustics and started applying it to car audio, I started heading down the path of what models well will sound well, and I could not have been farther from the truth. I argued endlessly from your side of the fence, until I was finally proven wrong in a lab environment with actual equipment, and a handful of acoustic engineers far smarter than I could show me my error "hands on".

Also, for the record here, you don't need to give me credit on my "vast" knowledge of anything. I am a hobbyist, nothing more. Guys like Cecil have forgotten more than I currently know about electronics. At least 25% of the amp repairs I have worked on I simply could not figure out. I don't have enough experience, nor do I want to make electronics my life. I feel the only thing that sets me apart from many others out there, and something which is a common goal of many people on this forum, is I do my best to help others with car audio figure out the stuff that no one helped me with years ago, and I had to figure out through my own research, or from my own mistakes.

[soundbit]

Ok I just came across something on another forum that I am pretty sure it BS but I can't say as I have ever heard it before and it DOES somewhat pretaint to this subject.

Can a larger ported box handle more power than a smaller ported box? I say NO due to the fact that the less air to control the come movement. We know sealed enclosures can handle more power than ported due to box size and lack of cone control below tuning freq. But what about 2 ported boxes. Can a larger ported handle more power than a smaller ported? HMMMMMM...