Phoenix Gold Phorum

Has anyone A/Bed these amps, or had older TI stuff and bought the new ones down the road and thought they were any better or worse?

Im interested because I cant seem to find any nice older TI amps, and I can get a deal on new ones...

STROKD wrote:Has anyone A/Bed these amps, or had older TI stuff and bought the new ones down the road and thought they were any better or worse?

Im interested because I cant seem to find any nice older TI amps, and I can get a deal on new ones...

pm drock he is close to me and good seller he has most of them for sale

here is only a little of what he has
http://phoenixphorum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=21827

Yes I have a few amps.

Kg, Drock wants more for his new 500s (7+ years old) than I can get new 600s for(7 weeks old)... Just sayin.

I would like to know if they sound the same or better (hard to believe they would be better).

Lol. Let me know how the new 600's sound. The only reason I would consider selling any of my gear is just to get some elite12's anyway. Which seems to be impossible.

Drock wrote:Lol. Let me know how the new 600's sound. The only reason I would consider selling any of my gear is just to get some elite12's anyway. Which seems to be impossible.

I dont know what they sound like, which is why I posted a thread about it. Apparently no one likes responding to me, or not one person on this site has had both amps to compare.

I have TI amps I can use, I just dont want to since it's not my install... Id rather get new amps if they dont suck.

I have a Ti800.4 currently installed in my primary vehicle. It sounds every bit as good as any other PG amp I have owned or had installed in the vehicle.

The same goes for on the test bench. It sounded every bit as good as any other PG amp does. I have used this amp about one hour a day for the past two years, so that should also say something about its reliability as well.

So the new Ti stuff sounds as good as MS or ZPA? Damn so the Elites must sound like the heaven opened up the pearly gates... BTW, I can tell subtle differences in all series, esp M, MS, TI and ZPA... They all have a little flavor added to the music. M being the most hard core and ZPA being the cleanist, with the MS and TI being somewhere in between.

I wonder if the shop would let me buy one to AB with my 475. I have this strange feeling the new one just isn't quite as silky sounding. Would love to be wrong though.

If you can tell a difference in the M, MS, and Ti amps, then I am guessing you can also tell the difference in the sound between an M25, and an M50, or a MS275 and a MS2125 right?

Never A/Bed those in a vehicle, but I did notice a difference in my friend's car from his Route 66 to his MS 2125s... Less strained and smoother, lot more headroom and volume (some was power diff though).

I have swapped from 275 to 2125 to MQ430 in my cars before.. The 2125 sounded best (again due to pwr and head room I assume). Wasn't back to back so I could just been dreaming.

Well, an MS275 has more in common with an M50 than it does with an MS215, even though the MS275 and MS2125 are from the same family.

I am confident no one could tell any of the three apart, in an A/B test, and within the power range of the lowest power amp in the bunch.

The same holds true for other PG amps.

PG uses the same circuit design in all these amps. It is what gives them their sonic character, or "PG Sound". It is why they don't sound like Rockford amps do, or PPI amps do, or plenty of other amps out there.

I do agree with what you say about power and headroom though. If you run two different PG amps, the more powerful one will likely sound better, as it has to work less at higher outputs. But, if you turn the gain down on the more powerful one and limit its output to that of a much lower power PG amp, they should sound the same (they are built the same).

Here is another way to break this down for others who are reading this...

A MS275 is rated at 75W. If you play it at 75W, that is the limit of the amp. If you play it at 50W it will sound better (less strained)

A MS2250 is rated for 250W. If you play it at 250W, that is the limit of the amp. If you play it at 200W it will sound better.

If you play a MS275 and a MS2250 at 50W, you will not be able to tell them apart. The MS275 is well within its limits. The MS2250 is WAY under its limits. Both don't have to work hard to sound good.

Now, I am sure people may argue that the MS2250 could sound even better, as it has to work the least, but any improvement would be a tradeoff, as the MS2250 has more parts (more output transistors), and more (depending on the amp design) is generally not as good for sound quality.

Either way, my point is that any PG amp with the same circuit design will sound like any other PG amp with the same circuit design, until you reach the limits of the weakest amplifier in the bunch, where its output quality breaks down.

Ill take your expert's advice and just trust you... That said the new Ti is similar to the old stuff...

So the Elite's are a different architecture which make them sound even better, right? I'm gonna try to get that new 5 channel for the Wife and take her old Ti amps...

I have not seen a schematic (probably never will either) of an Elite amplifier, so I really don't know if it is another architecture or not.

I can take a guess though...

The Xenon is a variation of the original PG circuit, as is the ZPA. All the following amps seem to be basically the same exact circuit, M, MS, ZX, Ti.

Also, the Tantrum and XS lines are MOSFET output amplifiers (no triple darlington), yet they still contain a very similar design to other PG amps.

I see no reason for PG to reinvent the wheel. I am guessing the Elite is the tried and true PG circuit from old.

The difference with the Elite is the use of Burr Brown Op-amps, and the huge MT-200 output transistors designed specifically for audio applications. I don't think either of these features will make the Elite jump out and sound better, but it should help.

Feedback is probably more important. With enough feedback, even bad parts can sound pretty good. If PG used a lot less feedback in the Elite, then the components become more important, and their sonic contribution more apparent.

Here's where power reserves (headroom) is important. When an amp is driven to full output and is close to clipping, there's less reserve voltage for the feedback to work with. Especially with low ohm loads. This is why amps start to sound bad close to clipping.

Amps with little or no feedback tend to clip softer and sound less harsh close to clipping. But as Eric pointed out such amps rely more on the quality (linearity) of their components.

I guess the new elite amps are built to maintain their composure and shine even when they are driven hard and loaded down.