Phoenix Gold Phorum

I have a 2012 Silverado Crew Cab. Right now I have an Elite.5 and have Elite.65's in the front and rear factory door locations. The front tweeter is in the factory A Pillar location. The front door location is pretty far forward in the door, and about half way up my calf when driving, so it's kinda low. I'm considering adding a second Elite.5 which would give me two four channel amps at 100 watts per channel for full range, and of course 1400 watts @ 2 ohm for the subs or 2200 watts at 1 ohm, but that last bit is neither here nor there for this topic.

My plan is to move the Elite.65's out of the back doors and into the front, likely the kick panels, and put a Ti 6.5" component set in the back doors, leaving the other Elite.65's in the front doors. That would give me Elite.65's in the kick panels and pretty far forward and low in the front doors. What I had in mind for the other two channels after doing some reading on mid-bass would apparently sound like shit, so I'm trying to figure out what to do. I'm also trying to stick with all Phoenix Gold gear, either Elite or Ti2 if possible because I am a fanboy, as well as stay away from coax sets, so it kinda limits me to 6" and 6.5" component sets. Putting 6 inch components in the A-Pillars would create a significant blind spot that I don't want to have, so that's out. Wouldn't want to do much more than 4's in the A-Pillars I don't think.

Plan B is to cut spaces out of the front of the sub enclosure under the rear seat close to each door for a sealed enclosure to house another 6.5" Ti set. That would essentially put those speakers within 3 inches of the back door speakers and have them in sort of an L shape firing configuration. Basically it would just add to the rear fill, but I'm trying to find a better option than that for the those speakers. Could also do 8's there for midbass probably, but the enclosure space for the subs is tight already. Cutting out a 0.3-0.4 space on each side for 8's would cut into that sub enclosure's internal volume too much I think, and don't think that would do much either way with 6.5's or 8's either one because the location isn't great for them.

Any ideas?

It sucks the Elites dont come other sizes or three way set ups, I have the same problem making it impossible to stay all PG, ignoring it for now while getting on with the rest of the system hoping for a miracle.

PhuckinGood wrote:It sucks the Elites dont come other sizes or three way set ups, I have the same problem making it impossible to stay all PG, ignoring it for now while getting on with the rest of the system hoping for a miracle.

Yes it would be good they would have a threeway set, 6.5, 4 and tweeter,

and even with two 6.5's, so a in one set two 6.5's, 4 and tweeter.....

Or a threeway with a 8 ", 5 " and tweeter......

maybe they will make them in the future.......

They do make a couple pointsource options in the Ti line, 6.5, 6x9, and 5x7, but don't think those are really options for me. If there was such a thing as a 6x9 woofer, I could try that for midbass because that's basically an 8".

The way it looks is I'm just going to end up doubling up on the locations I have essentially, and find myself turning the tweeters down on the EQ because there's going to be so damn many of them. Another option is abandon phoenix gold on those last 4 channels and put 6.5" subwoofers in the kicks and sub enclosure for mid bass.

I am not convinced that you would even notice a set of 6.5's in your proposed location in the rear. Being so close to your subs, and also within 3" of your door mounted rear fill. I would forget about the second set of rears and focus on optimizing the front stage. That being said, I get the impression that if your going to buy another Elite5, your going to use those extra channels for something.

There are some companies that make a 6x9" sub, there was a topic about them not too far back. Cant remember the brands.

Have you ever thought about building a console with a set of mids or center channel? This is another idea i have tossed around and was in process of building a F/G console for a spare MBQuart i had when i sold my last truck. I never finished it.

Whatever you decide, im sure it will sound incredible.

LL

I have two center consoles, one in the middle of the front seat, and an upper one that functions as an arm rest. Why Chevy put two consoles there is beyond me, but they're there. There is also a good amount of space under the dash over the transmission hump. Either the space under the dash or the lower console would easily be big enough for an 8" sub enclosure. My original plan was to bridge those two channels to 300 watts and put a beefy 8" in one or both of those locations. But, then I got to reading a few articles about midbass and found that it was a terrible idea. Below is one of them.

http://www.the12volt.com/installbay/for ... 00789~PN~1

From doing a lot of reading on it I learned that the human ear can't detect the direction that low bass frequencies are coming from up to 70 or 80hz, which we all know from hearing our subwoofers. As I understand it, above 70 to 80 hz and into the 250-300hz range the ear can detect the direction of those frequencies from right to left, but not from front to rear. Above those frequencies the ear can detect front, rear, right, and left, which is why we want 4 midrange speakers at each corner of the vehicle, but on subwoofers it doesn't matter. On midbass though, those frequencies come through in stereo, and as such you need to at least have a right and left midbass driver or it'll screw up the imaging. Again, that's as I understand it.

Based on that, I tend to think a pair of 8's mounted in a sealed enclosure under the rear seat as close to the rear doors as possible with the speakers aimed slightly upward toward the front headrest should work pretty good on it's face. It just so happens that this location is also the front of the subwoofer enclosure lol. Realistically there is no way I am going to get 8" speakers up front anywhere because I don't want to do excessive cutting on the doors and an 8" in the kicks is impractical since I am tall and wear a size 14 shoe. Dayton makes an 8" speaker that has a low qts, low fs, has a good frequency response in the midbass range, has a decent sensitivity to help it keep up with the mids, will take the power I would be throwing at it, and is affordable, so it should work for this. I wouldn't use it as a standalone subwoofer, but it should be great at midbass theoretically. http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/lo ... 4-ohm.html

The distance between those potential midbass speakers, the rear door speakers, and the front door speakers would be roughly the same from the front seats believe it or not. The front and rear door locations are very far forward and low, and the back of the front seat is just a few inches in front of the rear door speakers. Because of this I am sort of now questioning the wisdom of a component set in the kick panels because they would actually be the furthest from the front listener's head. Where the woofer and tweeter would both be aimed at the center console more or less, I question if they would be heard at all since they would be the furthest from the listener. Plus, the component sets would also be producing midbass frequencies in addition to the 8's (which I would be passive crossing around 250hz), so I'm wondering if there would be a bunch of cancelling going on.....

you are kind right about the kicks, kinda wrong. They are farther from your head and that is exactly why they were designed and what they are good for. The advantage is that while you move the drivers side almost a whole foot further away from you on the drivers side, the passengers side movement in relation to your ear is nearly 0. What you end up doing is making the change(delta) of distance from the speakers(drivers/pass) to your ears closer to 0. So this way phasing problems of the signal being played closer/further to your ear, reaching your ears at different times, is much less.

Now the down side is that these only exist with small/no legs in the way of them. If they did judging of contest cars with the driver sitting it his actual driving polisition they would not sound nearly as good on the passenger side and anytime someone gets in the passenger side you will notice the change in the soundstage.

BUT for those times when you have no passengers, its as close to a nice set of home speakers in your living room as you can get. Every rose has its thorn, can't make an omlette with out breakin a few eggs...

So, in theory, would you say that 6.5's in the kicks, front doors, and rear doors, with 8" midbass drivers under the rear seat firing forward is a solid plan, or should I look at doing something else? 90% of the time when more than just me is in the vehicle the system won't be up anyway, so I'm not real concerned about when someone is in the passenger seat. I do have long legs though, so my own legs might cause problems for the kick panel on the driver's side.

there will be a learning curve with the kicks as it generally means you will have a slightly different position while driving. I lost my dead pedal in mine so it took me some thought for a little while not to take my foot off the clutch and rest it on the kicks as I was use to doing. I made a grill to cover mine that was solid enough to take a foot into it just to be sure but they have stayed safe now for more then a few years. This is all before you even have the chance to remind your passengers not to kick your kicks...

Yeah, I already figured the kicks had to be made be pretty rugged with a solid grill. Most of the time if someone is in the passenger seat they are a co-worker or family, so it is an ass I really shouldn't be kicking lol.

Thanks for the advice!

Gah! The frustration with space issues continue. (We really need a "facepalm" emote on this forum)

I just mocked up the sub enclosure in Sketchup, and I have roughly 0.2 cu per side for midbass drivers, might can find another tenth if I had to, and about 3 inches give or take of total depth for said drivers. I figured if one did a sealed door pod it wouldn't be too much different from that. I could probably extend the baffle 3/4" by a board width if i had to, but I'd rather not. It's probably enough for 6.5's or some weak/shallow 8's, but I also need them to take 100-150 watts rms, have a sensitivity of 95+, and be able to reach down to 80 or 90hz, and cost $100 or less per driver, preferably under $75.......and not to mention sound good. Doesn't sound too hard right? Wrong. I find it annoying how companies brand a speaker as being a midbass, and then look at the freq response and the lowest it goes is 270hz

As much as I dislike Fosgate, they have a driver that'll work I think. I'd find myself obliterating the logo off the front of them if I went with those. Anyone got any other suggestions? Having Fosgate speakers in my system would just about be the end of the world as far as I'm concerned.

Just had a thought. How would it sound if I ran a pair of 200 watt rms 8 ohm midbass drivers in parallel for a 4 ohm load from the kick panels off of the Elite.5's sub channel? At 4 ohm the sub channel makes 400 watts. Would it effect the SQ if the midbass drivers weren't in stereo? I can set the amp's low pass x over at 250 and just let them play all the way down, or go passive high pass around 60hz, using the amp's low pass to create a band pass x over from 60-250hz.

The idea being that it would free me up to go with an Elite.1 as the second amp for the subs running 2 ohm instead of 1 ohm like I was planning with 2 Elite.5's and save a little coin. My main goal for the upgrade is to dramatically boost subwoofer output because of a bad dubstep habit I'm developing, and to increase midbass output on rock tracks that don't really get down too low, but have their basslines and dirty rhythm guitars in the 100-200 hz range. A lot of older rock music is that way, Guns N' Roses, Pantera, Metallica, and others.

How would that sound in theory? Would it be too much power in the kick panels and overpower the mids? Would the imaging be bad from being in mono?

I wouldn't recommend running the midbass in mono operation. Stereo imaging from 100hz-250hz is pretty important in my opinon.

I am going to be running a three way active system with subs by using a .5, and a .2. The subs will be bridged down to 1 ohm so the .5 will send plenty of power to them and the .2 will be running the 9" in my doors, in stereo. I too would not recomend you mid-bass being mono..

Kind of what I figured when I had that bright idea, but thought I'd ask if anyone had done it.

My biggest issue is that I only have about 2.6 cu. total for the sub enclosure and I can't fit two Ti2 tens ported, even in the SPL enclosure without raising the seat. I have one ported now, and while it sounds good, and is quite loud for a single 10", I feel like I am abusing it on bass heavy tracks. If I could do 2 ported I would just do that and drop the Elite.5 to 1 ohm and be done. Since they only need 0.6 sealed including displacement for the SQ box, I can run 4 sealed, and it would be somewhat louder than a pair ported I figure, but I need 2000+ watts to get to that level. Two Elite.5's can do that, and an Elite.1 can do that. I'm trying to get it to the point that I don't feel compelled to push the sub harder than I should, and four, even being sealed, with that power would do that. I thought about a pair of 12's sealed too, and the added half inch of depth makes them fitting doubtful as well.

I know I am sort of trying to ram a square peg in a round hole with two Elite.5's, but my other option is to sell the Elite.5 I have (and likely take a loss) and buy an Elite.4 and an Elite.1 instead. Either that or go with 2 Elite.5's and bite the bullet on midbass in the doors, Elite.65's in the kicks, and some sort of 5.25's in the A-Pillars to use the extra channels, and it looks like that would cost as much or more than buying two new amps and losing money on the first one because of all the custom work.

It's quite the quandary I find myself in.