running 4 batteries and a POWERGRID???

[sussexjohn]

So i have 4 optima redtops to go in the back of the car, possibly another upfront,

could i run y tantrum 10 farad power grid?

SHOULD I?

whats your thoughts?

although i had it since new in the box, so will have to open it up and check the caps are ok, prob knackered lol

10+ years in a box cnt be too healthy

[ttocs]

What are the plans for the build? I would hope your not talking about off you stock alt or even a single alt HO alt? But if they are all hooked up the core would be for little more then looks I mean it helps but not as much as 4 batteries does.

[sussexjohn]

yes std 120amp alt, been told it will charge em fine

ill be running

2 x tantrum 1200.1 amps
to a cerwin vega stroker 102 1000 watts rms per coil

2 x tantrum 600.4
2 x cerwin vega it component sets from one
a pair of pg elite 9" from the other

i did think its prob not worth using it

[dwnrodeo]

http://www.phoenixphorum.com/viewtopic. ... it=%2Agrid

[sussexjohn]

yeah did see that any way to get it checked?

[ttocs]

sure you need to either remove each cap or try to get some paper under them to check if they are leaking.

Who said the stock 120 amp alt will charge all of this and keep it charged? Not sure how that will work I would recommend at LEAST a 2nd stock alt if you not going to go with a HO alt. adding extra batteries to an alt will add extra capacity as long as the alt can charge it completely. If it can't though you will run the al hotter then its made to work and will live a short live.

Now the power grid in the middle of all of this is just one more danger to consider. Honestly if you have to have it(which I understand) I would just wire it up with some fake wire myself. Its not a question of IF it will fail, the question is what else could be burned up and damaged when it does catch fire. This on top of the batteries really is just setting yourself up to fail. Which really isn't a big deal I mean if the alt fails then you can get a bigger one but I thing you would get a lot more out of the system with the proper HO alt charging them but with out it your system may have a lot of amps, but less voltage.

Also did you buy the optimas yet? I have heard there are better options available

[sussexjohn]

I'm in the uk. Getting the batteries tomorrow night rep on them 600.00 im only paying 200.00 for them.

I did think the power grids may be useless

Wondering if there is a way to gut the insides and make it into just a distribution unit. With fused insides. And just use the shells

[Damo95]

Honestly, I don't think you'll need 4 batteries for those amps.. multiple batteries are really only used in SPL cars to keep the amps juiced up..
I had a T1200.1/2x T600.4 in my car off a single d34yt up front and it was fine.. even with my current Ti array (Ti2500.1/2x Ti800.4), a single is fine..
I'd run a redtop up front and another down the back if you're concerned...

[sussexjohn]

was just trying to avoid any voltage drop and was told they would only take around 5k rms max with all 4

and as ill be running around 4200k rms just wanted to be safe and get as little drop in voltage as possible

not looking forward to gain matching them, but looks easy enough

[sussexjohn]

i worked it out from watts

4200 rms / volts 14.4 = 292 amps

batterys are 50AH so x 4 is still only 200ah

but was told that should be fine to se eno voltage drops?

that the wrong calcumation?

[ttocs]

adding extra batteries isn't going to prevent a voltage drop it will make it worse if the charging system can't support them. Your alt only supplies 120 amps and your amps can take 300amps. Unless you charge those batteries before you start the car you will never see them charged up while the stereo is playing and your voltage drop will start with out a bass drop. Batteries are just storage devices, like a lake. If they are full then yes there is water for days but you need a source to fill them and your stock alt would be the equivalent of a small drainage ditch trying to fill one of the great lakes.

[NOT 2 OLD YET]

I agree with ttocs, if your charging system will not support what you are trying to achieve then whats the point. Your amps will draw down the batts faster than your alt can resupply. I would suggest running 2 batts and 1 HO alt. This should do the job. Having 4 batts IMO is not needed if you have a good alt that can keep up with the demand. Toss in a cap or 2 if it makes you feel better. For the cash you will put out in batts you can eliminate 2 and put it towards a better alt!

[zeropoint0.5]

first thing to notice, it is not so easy to put a HO alternator in a car in europe

like people can do it in the USA......

with for example german cars (bmw/ volkswagen/audi) only the stock alt of 140a is what you have.....

replacements there are not....(at least not in europe)....even adding a simular second one is not an option....

unless people here have done it and can give the correct information......


so if you stay with the stock alt, another option is to charge you're batteries frequently with a charger at home at night.....

i've seen a car with stock alt with a kicker warhouse amp ( 10000Wrms class D) with 2 big batteries in the back......

so it probably all depends on how loud and how long you play loud.....

but with a ho alt, can't you overcharge you're batteries when you're not playing all the time at full power ??

second thing about the powergrid, as you can see in the other thread, you better only use it if all the internal

caps are replaced....then you're probably fine......

the BRAX IPC caps of 1 and 2 farad are probably better replacements then the powergrid......

third thing about the optima red top, the red top is more a start battery, where the yellow top is more deep cycle....

so bottom line is a red top in front of the car, and a yellow in the trunk......

fourth thing is, why putting 4 batteries connected together if you can buy other brands like kinetik/odyssey/hollywood/stinger...etc

with much higher values...... unless you already have the red tops........

[Alfaholic]

first thing to notice, it is not so easy to put a HO alternator in a car in europe

like people can do it in the USA......

with for example german cars (bmw/ volkswagen/audi) only the stock alt of 140a is what you have.....

replacements there are not....(at least not in europe)....even adding a simular second one is not an option....

unless people here have done it and can give the correct information......


so if you stay with the stock alt, another option is to charge you're batteries frequently with a charger at home at night.....

i've seen a car with stock alt with a kicker warhouse amp ( 10000Wrms class D) with 2 big batteries in the back......

so it probably all depends on how loud and how long you play loud.....

but with a ho alt, can't you overcharge you're batteries when you're not playing all the time at full power ??

second thing about the powergrid, as you can see in the other thread, you better only use it if all the internal

caps are replaced....then you're probably fine......

the BRAX IPC caps of 1 and 2 farad are probably better replacements then the powergrid......

third thing about the optima red top, the red top is more a start battery, where the yellow top is more deep cycle....

so bottom line is a red top in front of the car, and a yellow in the trunk......

fourth thing is, why putting 4 batteries connected together if you can buy other brands like kinetik/odyssey/hollywood/stinger...etc

with much higher values...... unless you already have the red tops........

I agree diesel cars have 105-140amp alt and gasoline is 75-105ampere, often the gasoline engine are 1100cc - 2000cc here because the bigger the engine the more you pay in fee, getting a bigger alternator is hard and often require to make new mounting for it and the alternator location is often behnd the engine making it hard task.
Its not impossible but its a alot of work, if you find a HO alt the price is high but on some cars you can get them.

[Stryker]

Red tops ARE a starting battery.... one up front and either a yellow or blue top in the back. I agree with a few others as there is alot better options than Optima.... That being said they aren't horrible by any means in my experience with them. GL

[vladthebad]

Other option is to figure what you can lose, and use that position for another alternator possibly. Can you live without AC? That might be a good spot. Can you live without power steering? Another possible spot... An additional alternative may be to swap to an electric power steering pump to gain space to mount an alternator where the old power steering pump was.

Lastly, you may also be able to buy a high output rebuild of your stock alternator, or in a case that is just slightly longer, or slightly bigger in diameter. Some options may be externally regulated, letting you mount the regulator elsewhere to use that room for more windings/armature.

Four batteries with stock alt isn't going to be much fun. After 10 minutes, you'll be stuck playing catchup and likely wont ever get there.... At that point you've made it worse than one or two batteries.

[ttocs]

I have been to more then a few local alternator shops here in the US in crappy little towns that could rebuild a stock alt to get more juice out of it, hard to believe that there isn't someone in Europe doing a similar job. And what is about the complaining about making custom mounts?! I had cut a new upper bracket from 1/4" steel in order to fit a larger alt that doesn't even have the voltage regulator on board. If you want to play you pay and there are very few ways around it in this hobby so yes you will need to make some changes to fit a high current system with 4 batteries in it.

[Virtue]

I ran (5) red top Optimas and (4) 1.2 farad caps on my stock 85 amp alternator... No problem! And it charged just fine. I don't get what the problem is... One just has to realize that once the stereo exceeds the amperage of the alternator, the system is now running strictly off the batteries, so the voltage will be in the 11's. And when you drain your batteries completely down, one has to turn their system down so the alternator can charge the batteries back up. This will take a bit longer than a HO alternator will... big whoop.

[ttocs]

I am just not sure what you gain with the extra 2 batteries other then then the need to monitor the voltage and turn it down to let it recharge?

[vladthebad]

You are also far more likely to kill amps with the extra batteries. Sitting in the low 11's isn't exactly gentle on the power supply...
Now, if you had a dc-dc regulated output converter that put out 14v, based on your 10-11v input... That'd work great... Until it couldn't keep up and died or suffered thermal shutdown.

Better to just solve the problem with a big alt or second alt. it may end up being cheaper than the batteries too. It will certainly take up less usable space, and weigh less.

[Virtue]

Wow, didn't realize people did not know the reason for running extra batteries... Like I said before, once a stereo pulls more than the output of an alternator and the vehicle's electrical system, the stereo strictly works off of the battery reserve. If one cannot buy a HO alternator, batteries are the only way to go. I had a Saab vehicle. There was not a HO alternator for this car... Now, concerning the power supply in amplifiers, they are not stressed out when the voltage is in the 11's. They get stressed out when the 'current' going to the amps are too low. This causes heat. So, if you can't fit a larger alternator in, one has to support the system with multiple batteries, for the current reserve...

Interestingly, most people who have HO alternators still don't realize that their voltage actually still drops when playing huge bass notes. And it's their battery that takes over. If your headlights dim a bit when a heavy bass note hits, your voltage is in the high 11's... which is still good... and the battery is now taking over.

I used this method back in the day, when I had the loudest car stereo in Canada. Slam Jam rules of course...

[ttocs]

I have understood for some time now that the extra batteries are good for little more then spl burps here/there, as well as the fact my HO alt dual battery system still has some voltage dips, but I have never seen it in the 11's. I think you have it confused that we understand what the extra batteries are for we just didn't think that this was the install that needed them.

[Virtue]

My explanation was because of the system that he has. He has a lot of current draw and he does not have a HO alternator. Once he exceeds the current output of his alternator, the vehicle's voltage will drop to battery voltage. If anyone has ever put a moderate stereo on a fully charged battery, one would see that the voltage would start off around 12.4-12.2, (no load) and will drop around 11.8 within seconds. ( Check it out with a multimeter if you don't believe me ) No one can change this. This is inherent of batteries. Now, if one exceeds the output of a battery, it will drop to about 11.2 - 10.8 volts. Now, if this happens, the stereo has now exceeded the battery's abilities and it's reserve, so many people will then add extra batteries to help with this. And this is when power supplies fry, because the battery (and alternator) cannot supply enough power when the amps are asking for more power.

The above calculation of 292 amps at 14.4 volts will never happen. He has only a 120 amp alternator. So, this is why I explained about multiple batteries. The calculation is wrong. No alternator will yield 14.4 volts. ( unless it is separate from the rest of the vehicle and it is custom ) It might when all the planets align right, but, as soon as the alternator warms up, the voltage will be lower. This is why I never even look wattage readings at 14.4 or even 13.8 volts. The amp will never see that kind of voltage. Maybe the low 13's but, this would be at a quiet volume. So, he requires more "current reserve" then the 292amps he calculated...

Yes, more batteries will help with longer spl songs, when the alternator cannot keep up. The amps need power from somewhere...

And the guy above, asked if his 120 amp alternator can charge 4 batteries, yes it can. So, I was answering his question and not "telling" him another way of doing it.

[ttocs]

no alt with 4 batteries hooked up will ever hit 14v but I have never had an issue being closer to 14v then to 12v, and that included 10 years in the desert of phoenix with a stereo.

In reality he asked if he could add the power grid on top of 4 batteries and of course we all know that would not matter a bit. Yes it is possible to charge 4 batteries with on alt, is it ideal - HELL NO....