Tuning Coax Mounted Components

[Phoenixcolt]

Hey Everyone,

Installed ID Components coaxially in stock door locations. Vocals sound a lot louder from the left front, I assume due to the better path to my ears. The right front is firing across the passenger footwell.

I am using time correction and my built in 5 band PEQ can not adjust the left and right idependently.

Is it worth it to change the phase on the tweet and mid to see if it balances out the vocals between the left and right. The unbalanced sound stage is driving me mad.

[ttocs]

worst case scenario you can just switch it back.

[Phoenixcolt]

So much truth! : )

[ttocs]

sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't. It could just be that they do not do that well off-axis or some cross overs have a -2 up to a -6db attenuator that you can select that might be on with one and not the other. You could test this theory pretty easy by just swapping the rca's and see if now the other speakers tweeter sounds weird or of course by taking a close look at your cross overs.

[Phoenixcolt]

Yeah the attenuators in the both xovers set the same. I was in there a while ago to change the crossovers.

Would it ever help to change the phase of the tweet only in a coax mounted component set? Then the mid and tweet would be out of phase. If it's coax, that's not likely going to change anything for the better is it?

[ttocs]

sound is subjective so try it and if you like, others have as well.

Have you tried adjusting the one side that is louder with the tweeter attenuator to bring it down in about the same range as the other? Yes it will sound off to your passenger but I rarely sit there anyway myself....

[Bfowler]

some speakers respond very well to swapping phase in one or both drivers per side. give it a shot!

[ajaye]

Yeah the attenuators in the both xovers set the same. I was in there a while ago to change the crossovers.

Would it ever help to change the phase of the tweet only in a coax mounted component set? Then the mid and tweet would be out of phase. If it's coax, that's not likely going to change anything for the better is it?

Any crossover alters phase somehow. Time (delay) also alters phase. If the crossovers are designed to remedy some amount of group delay when the drivers are not installed co-axially, then inverting the phase of either driver in a coaxial setup could have noticeable results. Whether they are desirable results or not is up to you, but its probably worth trying. One thing that may be helpful is to use mono source material when you experiment. A lot of widening/image-developing techniques employed when music is being mixed down can exacerbate a simple group delay.

[Phoenixcolt]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

The other day I tried swapping the phase of the full component on the passenger side, then put it back and changed the driver's side phase. It was a noticeable change each time but I didn't love the result.

I adjusted the time correction of the passenger side after I put the components both back into phase and started to hear some good things. It widened the soundstage a lot so instrumentation was much more "visible". I really like it.

While this also helped the vocals a bit, I am still hearing most of the vocals on the drivers side. I think I will try to change the mid phase on the passenger side first and independently of the tweet because that is where the brunt of the vocals are missing for me. The tweet in this set is high passed at 4k so I am looking for more midrange vocal output which is the 150-500 hz range. I need that passenger side mid sound to hit my ears a little sooner than the drivers side...that was where the time correction started to help but if I adjust it any further, I start to lose something.

[ttocs]

I thought we were talking about just swapping the tweeters polarity but it sounds like you swapped the whole component? That I would not recommend, putting one side completely out of phase will just add to canceling and make bad sound.

[ajaye]

I thought we were talking about just swapping the tweeters polarity but it sounds like you swapped the whole component? That I would not recommend, putting one side completely out of phase will just add to canceling and make bad sound.

me too, I just use "driver" generically. Probably wanna experiment with the tweeter's attenuator settings before fully inverting the tweeter...isn't physics fun?

Just for grins, where are the components high-passed and what alignment? And same question for the low-pass for your sub(s)?

[Phoenixcolt]

Yes, I swapped the whole component. I don't think the tweeter is the problem, the mid is what I sense as the problem, but maybe I am missing something.

And Yup, physics is awesome : ).

I went with ID's recommendations for tweeters mounted on mid: The tweeters are set to 12db, high passed at 4000hz, and attenuation on both sides set to -2 (goes as low as -7), this is all done through the passive crossovers included with the comps.

The sub is electronically low passed at about 80hz through one amp, the components are electronically high passed at about 50hz through the other amp...so there could possibly be some cancellation happening there but if I mute the sub, the vocals still sound drivers side biased. FYI, my sub fires toward the passenger side of the car. Also, I have tried swapping the sub phase though the headunit to no avail.

Let me know if I can clarify anything else.

[ttocs]

swapping one entire side will never help unless it was jacked to begin with. But while you have it done take the time to listen and recognize what you are hearing as once you learn what to listen for its a great talent to have if you install speakers.. First off fade the sound all the way up front and you will notice the bass cancellations. Now balance the sound to one side or the other and you will get more bass with only one speaker working. If you are trying to figure out which speaker is wrong now with only on speaker working, again fade the sound so you only have the two speakers playing on one side. If you still notice the bass cancellation then you know one of the speakers on that side is backwards. Also with two speakers playing(with one out of phase) close your eyes and try to "picture" where the speakers are at and you will probably notice its a little different
and harder to know where they are.

but back to the topic at hand - try swapping just the tweeters on both speakers and see what it sounds like. It doesn't work as well with the woofers because they will cancel the bass from the rear speakers.

[Phoenixcolt]

Thanks for the info, I am definitely trying to get better at imaging and tuning.

Fyi, I do not use rear speakers. I have left and right front components mounted coaxially, and a single 10 firing from the driver's side trunk corner toward the passenger side of the car.

So that makes changing phase quite a bit less complicated...I just hope I can get some results!

Soon I will also be installing an Audiocontrol DQS, so that will gife me a lot of functionality as well, but midrange phase is my best bet right now I think.

[ajaye]

So time alignment can only do so much, especially working with such a wide high pass band, as you found, then it will just wreak havoc and cause terrible combing. If I were you, I would probably spend minimal time on this right now if you can get it to sound acceptable knowing its temporary. Once you have the DQS installed you have the 2 parametric bands per channel, which should help make this a lot easier to dial in combined with the time correction. Basically you can't correct an issue in the time domain with frequency response changes and vice-versa, but once you have the DQS you will have ability for independent correction in both time and frequency domains. Then you can let the fun begin.

[Phoenixcolt]

Yeah now I'm even more stoked to get the DQS in. Should be pretty sweet.