Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

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Virtue
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Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Virtue »

I have spent thousands of dollars on high end film capacitors and such improvements and this is what I found out. If you are all about SQ, this will make you smile in amazement. Many have older PG amps like the MS series and M series. Both amps use opamps. Some have even bought Burr Brown replacements to help improve the sound. You will be astonished when you remove those opamps and install these 'analog' replacements. It removes the dark veil over the music and opens up the sound stage. It also makes the music more clear and defined. Keep in mind, it won't help much if you have cheaper equipment in your system... But if you want the ultimate SQ, you will get it with these replacements. The ZPA amps don't use opamps, but, the line drivers do. So, here a person buys the best SQ amp around, but, the line driver destroys the sound before it even gets there... Go figure... That's why all the sound kind of sound the same with all the amps. I've modded all of mine and all I can say is wow.

It will work in any device where you have opamps. Including your home audio equipment. Like preamps, CD players and some amplifiers.

I am not a sales person for this company, just a PG fan since the beginning! I have experimented with a lot of stuff and I wanted to share this with you on this forum.

Check this out:
http://www.bursonaudio.com/products/sup ... -opamp-v5/
Last edited by Virtue on Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
trickyricky
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Re: Here's how to mke PG amps sound better.

Post by trickyricky »

My SA3.0x utilizes six op amps, how much for six?
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Mr. Wild
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Re: Here's how to mke PG amps sound better.

Post by Mr. Wild »

Without any experience in replacing op amps, a few comments come to mind.
First of all, op-amps are not digital. They are analog devices packed into a small space.
I am also under the impression op-amps limit sound quality somewhat. But the biggest limitation in sound quality are most recordings these days.

Zpa amps can be used without a line driver also. This degrades the noise rejection to some extent but otherwise should be ok sq wise.
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Re: Here's how to mke PG amps sound better.

Post by ttocs »

I am curious if you did a true a-b with the amp and an original version or did you switch the op-amps, turn it on and then enjoy the placebo effect as much as better sound? Also curious what your background in sound is to recognize all these changes?
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
Virtue
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Re: Here's how to mke PG amps sound better.

Post by Virtue »

Yes, I did a A-B test side by side. Both on my M50's and my MS 275's. There is a large difference. I wanted to do my ZPA crossover but, there are a lot of opamps in there... I also have modified my house CD player. Even more of a difference. But no sense doing an amp used for playing subwoofers. You won't hear it. Do the amp that plays your front stage, mids and highs. But like I said before, if you have a weak link in your sound system, the benefits won't be heard as readily.

Truthfully, the mud or veil gets removed from the sound. It is quite impressive. The music becomes more natural and lively.

This new product uses only transistors, while an opamp does not.

They are not the cheapest, but, way cool for what it does. If you open up any high end home audio equipment, they don't use opamps, just transistors. There is a reason why... Just read up on the site.

As for the cost, it's on their site. Like I said, they are not the cheapest. If there are six? in a Saphire. It will be too expensive. Make sure the opamps are for the sound stage. I know there are other chips for the clipping lights and other stuff. Don't touch those. Those don't affect the sound. The M50 has 2 opamps for sound (by input RCA) and the MS 275 has 3. Look at the site and they will have opamp numbers that their product directly replaces.

Oh and take notice of the size of this product... It can only fit in certain areas unless you have wire extensions.

This site shows the sound difference between opamps. The third being the most open and lively. The Burson slaughters this!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZrfU5lkzIs
Virtue
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Re: Here's how to mke PG amps sound better.

Post by Virtue »

Mr. Wild wrote:Without any experience in replacing op amps, a few comments come to mind.
First of all, op-amps are not digital. They are analog devices packed into a small space.
I am also under the impression op-amps limit sound quality somewhat. But the biggest limitation in sound quality are most recordings these days.

Zpa amps can be used without a line driver also. This degrades the noise rejection to some extent but otherwise should be ok sq wise.

The RCA's and the head unit plays a huge part in SQ. Also, the crossover caps... I found the ZPA's to have sharper detail, especially at the leading edge of the music if you use the Balanced cable set up. (not unBalanced, RCA) But, it goes through the line driver first. This affects the music. RCA cables also play a huge role in SQ too. Experiment with this. Go buy some RG6 coax cable from the hardware store. Put some RCA connectors on it. You might need a fancy crimping tool to do this. Maybe borrow one. Now do an A-B comparison with your home or car stereo system. There will be a large difference. The coax will bring the vocal music forward quite a bit and the detail will be sharper. So to fully utilize the ZPA's capability, one has to use the Balanced Line set up, but then, the line driver needs to be modified with no opamps... That's why many don't hear a difference in SQ with the ZPA's. Your head unit and Balanced Line drivers play a huge part with them. Truthfully, all PG amps are really good SQ amps!
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by knightrider358 »

Holly Molly....$130 for one.....

Was contemplating geting them for an m100 for front stage but DAYUM!!!!!!!
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by vwdude »

They are sending me 6 to try out in my MQ-430. I don't think they are $130 each, if so that's crazy. I'll give an accurate review of it once I'm done. They are over an inch tall so they won't work in many car amps.
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Virtue
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Virtue »

knightrider358 wrote:Holly Molly....$130 for one.....

Was contemplating geting them for an m100 for front stage but DAYUM!!!!!!!

Hahaha, they are expensive. But that price is for 2, dual op amps. Otherwise it is $70 of one...
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by ttocs »

times like this I can't help but think about Richard clarks amp test and wonder.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by vwdude »

Yea Scott, it makes you wonder, are amps with opamps changing the sound because of what opamps do or do these opamps do something? I think that these opamps just make the reproduction more accurate.
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Virtue
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Virtue »

Chip opamps are good for what they are designed for. They are cheap and they amplify sound in a very small package. For the purest, one wants to hear the sound as to how it was truly recorded. Regular chip opamps are not able to reproduce accurate sound. These new transistor replacement opamps are able to reproduce sound as to how it was truly recorded. Without 'coloring' the sound.

I have opened up a hand full of house CD players. Most use chip opamps. But, what is more interesting, a lot of DACs have chip opamps built into them, so, already, the sound is being 'colored' or changed even before leaving the DAC. It's too bad the M100 has 6 chip opamps. As sound goes through each chip opamp, the sound changes every time... This also holds true to the car's head unit.
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Eric D
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Eric D »

Replacing the op-amps in PG amplifiers (or most any car audio amplifier) will not improve its sound. Any cheap (but still good) op-amp will sound the same in these circuits, due to the design of the circuit itself.

Now, I don't doubt op-amp choice can make a difference in some real simple feedback free design where they would play a more critical role in the signal path. (high end headphone amplifiers come to mind)

Also, notice in my first sentence I stated "will not improve its sound". This is different than "will not change its sound". I also don't doubt that a boutique op-amp will change the sound by coloring it, and when you spend money on something and then actually perceive a difference, you are likely to consider that an improvement when it actuality it is not. A good amplifier should not add or take anything away from the original signal, only increase its level. If you stick some high end op-amps in there and notice a difference, you are adding equalization in some form.

This argument is right up there with the cable quality arguments. Countless testing over the years by an array of credible sources has shown that in A-B testing the expensive stuff is always chosen, and in blind A-B testing it is only chosen at random. If anyone wants to spend a ton on something and then brag about it, that is their choice and their opinion, no one can argue with it. When they start claiming it is better then they are moving away from opinion to the realm of needing science to back them up in some way or another.
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by ttocs »

good thought I was the only one.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
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Eric D
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Eric D »

I am going to go out on a limb and argue that these discrete component op-amp replacements are actually WORSE than the original op-amps they are to replace.

-Transistors come in all shapes and sizes, but for the most part they are at the same in operation. Generally speaking the smaller the transistor, the faster it can switch (or operate in general), but the less current it can transfer.

Op-amps are an IC (integrated circuit), where separate discrete components are placed on a single silicon wafer and produced at the same time. Just like with a computer processor, they are all created together under the same conditions, and are very "matched" with one another. All of the transistors and wires (and anything else) on the op-amp is then wired to its external pins, and encased in a plastic package.

The smaller transistors used in an op-amp will be much faster, so they will track the signal much quicker and respond to changes much quicker. Since they are created all on the same die at the same time, they are all matched with one another and are therefor more consistent which will produce a more accurate output. Also, with them all being together, they will heat up the same at the same rate and further maintain consistency.

No amount of component matching on these discrete component op-amps will compare to the inherent matching of the IC op-amps components within their own die.

The only advantage I can see with these discrete component op-amps is power handling. In the case of a preamp circuit in a power amplifier (like a PG amp), the level of power is so low it is not even close to being an issue.

However, a lot of people use op-amps to build headphone amplifiers, where the op-amp is the power amplifier in the circuit. Here is a place where a discrete component op-amp could really shine. Especially when used with lower impedance headphones, which are more complex to drive.

On a not completely related topic, take a look at the Crown DriveCore series of products. Crown worked with someone else to develop a preamp IC for use in their full range Class D amplifiers. The result was huge portions of the preamp being integrated into a single "chip". This greatly increased the sound quality of the amplifier over the previous use of discrete components. Many so called "audiophiles" have done A-B testing on the Crown DriveCore amps vs traditional Class A/B or even Class A amplifiers and liked what they have heard. For any Class D to compete just a few years ago was unheard of.
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by vwdude »

Eric, I have always had your opinion. His company is sending me a set of 6 opamps to try out on an amp (MQ-430). It won't be a true a-b test but I figured it's worth a listen. If the improvement is worth the $70 each then I should be able to hear the difference. If the sound is not improved then no harm/no foul I didn't pay for them, and if it's worse then I'll just go back to my burr brown opamps.
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Eric D
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Eric D »

vwdude wrote:Eric, I have always had your opinion. His company is sending me a set of 6 opamps to try out on an amp (MQ-430). It won't be a true a-b test but I figured it's worth a listen. If the improvement is worth the $70 each then I should be able to hear the difference. If the sound is not improved then no harm/no foul I didn't pay for them, and if it's worse then I'll just go back to my burr brown opamps.
I am going to guess you won't notice a difference. The op-amps are not really the weak link in a PG amplifier, or in a car audio system as a whole. If they were, we would be seeing a lot more push from a multitude of manufacturers to remove them from their designs and go with discrete components. I am looking forward to hearing your feedback on these parts.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
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Virtue
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Virtue »

Hey Eric, why not copy and paste your comments to an email to Burson Audio. I would love to see their response... It's a shame how there is such a strong opinion here, based on no actual listening experience... An Op-amp cannot 'create' sound. It can only 'reproduce' it. If it cannot reproduce it properly, then it colors or degrades the actual recorded music. Is this changing sound? Yes. It is actually changing the sound from how the music was actually recorded. The closer the sound is to the original recording, the better it will sound. (better as to every instrument will sound more natural, real, accurate) Phoenix gold amps use the op-amps right in the first stage of amplification. If the sound is changed, the rest of the amp will reproduce fake music.

Similar with speaker cable. The engineering paper says that sound will travel fro point A to point B, but, how well, is the question.
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by ttocs »

I think we all need to remember that sound is fairly subjective and its up to us to decide what we think sounds good. I have a friend that still insists records sound better because they are analog even though most artists are now recording and eq'ing in the digital relm now. These would be a tough sale at the least with out a true a-b test and even then to say they make them sound better again I think will depend on what you think sounds good and if you paid for and put the time into installing them.
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Re: Here's how to mke PG amps sound better.

Post by NotDeafYet »

Deleting my post wasn't obvious.. so I redacted it.
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Eric D
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Eric D »

Virtue wrote:Hey Eric, why not copy and paste your comments to an email to Burson Audio. I would love to see their response... It's a shame how there is such a strong opinion here, based on no actual listening experience... An Op-amp cannot 'create' sound. It can only 'reproduce' it. If it cannot reproduce it properly, then it colors or degrades the actual recorded music. Is this changing sound? Yes. It is actually changing the sound from how the music was actually recorded. The closer the sound is to the original recording, the better it will sound. (better as to every instrument will sound more natural, real, accurate) Phoenix gold amps use the op-amps right in the first stage of amplification. If the sound is changed, the rest of the amp will reproduce fake music.

Similar with speaker cable. The engineering paper says that sound will travel fro point A to point B, but, how well, is the question.
So what proof do you have that the Burson Audio op-amps replacements "reproduce" sound more accurately than a standard off the shelf jellybean op-amp?

Right now, science is telling me they are actually inferior. Their parts are not matched as well, they are spaced out far from each other (comparatively), with their signals having to travel over pcb traces instead of direct contact, and they operate slower. This all adds up to less accurate reproduction of the original signal.

The only area I can see any benefit to them is power handling, which should not matter in a typical preamp circuit.

I have no plans to email them. Anyone trying to sell someone a $70 op-amp is going to argue to the ends of the Earth to defend their position. They have to, the sales of their product depend on it.

I have one more point I am compelled to make. If you listen to any music recorded since say 1990, or if you listen to anything digital (maybe a CD or MP3 player in your vehicle), those tracks were recorded or converted with equipment which had cheap op-amps in it. Many op-amps. So if you are tying to convince someone to replace 3 or 4 op-amps in their amplifier with a $70 part, using the claim they have been listening to "fake" music all these years because of it, what do you do about the other 50 to 100 op-amps which were involved in your music further up the signal chain?

I am guessing that you, Virtue, have a record player in your vehicle and only listen to vinyl? I just can't see you making these claims if you listen to a CD in your car, with its many integrated op-amps.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
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Eric D
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Eric D »

Here is some further technical background for anyone reading this thread.

For the record, it has been over 10 years since I modified my MS1000TA, so I may have some errors in following going from memory...

In the PG MS amp specifically (which most everyone loves as an SQ benchmark), there are three op-amps. One is used for the gain control, one is used for the bass control, and another is used for signal inverting one channel so you can bridge the amplifier.

Now, my guess is that NO op-amps are better than ANY op-amps. In the case of the MS series, you can bypass the whole preamp section with all its op-amps, and run your input signal directly into the voltage gain stage of the amplifier. Back when I was modifying my MS1000TA I did just that. I first removed and shorted two capacitors directly in the signal path. I then bypassed the whole preamp section including the areas I removed capacitors from.

The end result was no different for me. The amp sounded the same stock as it did with capacitors bypassed, and as it did with the preamp bypassed. In the end I put the preamp back, and left the capacitors bypassed.

Now, I will admit, I did not A-B test it. However, if op-amps sound so bad, I am sure the difference would be noticed going from 3 of them to none of them, but it was not. Keep in mind, 99% of people don't have the ability to A-B test something. They will buy these Burson Audio op-amps, remove their amplifier, install the new parts and then put it back. This will likely take several hours, so A-B testing is not going to happen and any improvement will be even less noticeable.

Now that I have more equipment and the space to do it, I might give this a try with some spare MS amps. I can modify one, setup the A-B test, and see if I or any others can hear a difference in the two. And the best part is I don't have to spend $200 on op-amps to try it out.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by zeropoint0.5 »

my question would be, would changing upgrading of the opamps give you a better sound, or a better signal to noise ratio ???

those are 2 different things...........
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Eric D
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Eric D »

zeropoint0.5 wrote:my question would be, would changing upgrading of the opamps give you a better sound, or a better signal to noise ratio ???

those are 2 different things...........
They should not improve either of those things, as their influence on both of those items are too low compared to the rest of the amplifier's circuits.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
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Weaklink
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Re: Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

Post by Weaklink »

Maybe the real question is do you really want to change the sound of the amp? I've a/b tested a MS250 and M50 and prefer the M50. That might be because of the way it does color the sound. We all have our favorite amps because of the coloring or feeling the amp has. I ran an elite.5 for a while. Great amp lots of power and very clean. The problem was it didn't have the feel my m series give me. I like the way my m amps color the sound so if it isn't broke I'm not going to change it to something that may ruin the feel for me. My 2 cents anyway.
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