Here's how to make PG amps sound better.

[Eric D]

If you heard a difference between a MS250 and a M50, I guess I cannot really argue with that. What I do wonder though is if the MS250 (or maybe the M50) had something wrong with it.

The MS250 and the M50 are nearly identical amplifiers, just in a different chassis. They use nearly identical parts, and their electrical schematic is nearly identical. When you get right down too it, the MS250 is more like a M50 than a M25 or M100 are like a M50. And the M25 and M100 are in the same lineup.

[Weaklink]

It was a minor difference. The 250 has a bit more midbass punch and brighter highs. I preferred the overall smoother sounding tone of the M50 personally. Now I'm sure there are others that would choose the 250 over the 50. It's all subjective to how we perceive the music. Now would replacing op amps help? Maybe for some. Maybe worse for some. What's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.

[ttocs]

reminds me of the old compression button I had on a factory cd player. Not sure what it did but on some cd's they sounded better and others not so much. Just didn't cost $70 to push and I could always go back if I didn't like it...

[Virtue]

hahaha, I knew I would cause a discussion on this topic. It is difficult to explain sound if no one has heard the difference between a cheap amp and an expensive amp. How can I explain 'the leading edge of music'? How can I explain depth and sound stage? Coloration? One has to have heard it first, to understand right? Install a cheap pair of RCA cables, listen to a song you really know. Then install an expensive pair of RCA's. Do you hear the difference? Yes, if the rest of the system is capable of reproducing quality sound. But, when one compares both RCA cables, on paper, they have the same S/N ratio and they make a connection from point A to point B. But why do they sound way different? The expensive pair gives more detail, depth, back ground sounds and is more natural sounding.

This goes true with op-amps. They do the job, but, they all sound different. Listen to video that I posted (5th comment from the top) concerning op-amps. They essentially are made the same, but, they sound different. One is more realistic to how the sound was recorded. Is this not what we want? More realistic sound, true to how it was recorded?

Truthfully, this topic is for those who want to stretch their learning of accurate sound by doing small tweaks here and there with their sound systems. Home and Car. Yes, it might cost a bit for that next step of sound quality, but, now their system is better than the average Joe's and one can now hear and relate to the sound experience. Once you hear it, you will want more. But, that's your choice...

A comment above talked about an M50 vs M25 for sound. Yes, they both have the the same input circuit, but, they do sound different. (but, only if your other components in the system can relay the music). Why? Exactly. It just does... My Krell KSA 50 house amp sounds way sweeter than my Krell KSA 100. They both have the same input stage, same components, same caps, just the 100 has more output transistors. Yet, the 50 sounds better. Sometimes engineering papers cannot explain what makes better sound. Just like the op-amp scenario. Only your hearing can do the judging...

[kg1961]

I can see both points
but a system is only as good as it weakest link so I would have to say just changing one part in a amp will not change it a lot
as it still need to go through all the other cheap parts In the system..

[Eric D]

hahaha, I knew I would cause a discussion on this topic. It is difficult to explain sound if no one has heard the difference between a cheap amp and an expensive amp. How can I explain 'the leading edge of music'? How can I explain depth and sound stage? Coloration? One has to have heard it first, to understand right? Install a cheap pair of RCA cables, listen to a song you really know. Then install an expensive pair of RCA's. Do you hear the difference? Yes, if the rest of the system is capable of reproducing quality sound. But, when one compares both RCA cables, on paper, they have the same S/N ratio and they make a connection from point A to point B. But why do they sound way different? The expensive pair gives more detail, depth, back ground sounds and is more natural sounding.

This goes true with op-amps. They do the job, but, they all sound different. Listen to video that I posted (5th comment from the top) concerning op-amps. They essentially are made the same, but, they sound different. One is more realistic to how the sound was recorded. Is this not what we want? More realistic sound, true to how it was recorded?

Truthfully, this topic is for those who want to stretch their learning of accurate sound by doing small tweaks here and there with their sound systems. Home and Car. Yes, it might cost a bit for that next step of sound quality, but, now their system is better than the average Joe's and one can now hear and relate to the sound experience. Once you hear it, you will want more. But, that's your choice...

A comment above talked about an M50 vs M25 for sound. Yes, they both have the the same input circuit, but, they do sound different. (but, only if your other components in the system can relay the music). Why? Exactly. It just does... My Krell KSA 50 house amp sounds way sweeter than my Krell KSA 100. They both have the same input stage, same components, same caps, just the 100 has more output transistors. Yet, the 50 sounds better. Sometimes engineering papers cannot explain what makes better sound. Just like the op-amp scenario. Only your hearing can do the judging...

It sounds to me like most of what you hear different is all in your head. It is easy to make wild claims based on what you spent on equipment, but it is really hard to back that up with actual science. If you want to believe something sounds different, fine, you have every right to believe that. However, when you start guiding others with your claims, you need to back it up with something solid. Otherwise you are just wasting other people's time and money.

You do realize you titled your thread "Here's how to make PG amps sound better." right? Then you post something that is at best 0.00001% of the issue with PG amplifiers. Instead of upgrading 3 op-amps in most PG amps at $70 each for a total of $210, one could put that $210 towards some better speakers, and their system would sound a whole heck of a lot better, as PG amps OUT OF THE BOX are good enough to reveal the differences in high end speakers. $210 will go a long way towards even better speakers.

Your claim is just as wild as saying you can make your car go faster if you replace the steel fuel lines with copper ones. The big difference though is speed can be measured. If the car with copper lines is faster we can measure and prove it. In the case of changing op-amps, no one can measure the sonic difference (because there is no difference), so you think that by claiming they are better you can sell more and get a pass on proving they are better.

By using the title you did, you are stating that I can take my PG amp, replace its op-amps, and it will sound better. 99% (or more) of the members here would not get the results you claim. If they replaced their op-amps, it would not sound better, it would sound the same. 10 or more other restrictions in their installation would be holding back the POTENTIAL of them even hearing a difference. Number 1 being this is car audio, not home audio. Cars are very less than ideal environments for determining subtle differences in sound. If their car is actually moving, throw any chance of a difference out the window as road noise will drown out the difference by orders of magnitude.

I have replaced the stock PG op-amps with Burr-Brown op-amps before. I did not hear a difference. Now, what excuse do you have? My ears are not good enough? Maybe. Burr-Brown is not enough of an upgrade over stock? Maybe. My speakers are not revealing enough to hear a difference? Maybe. I have been in car audio a long time now. Yes my ears are getting older, but I still own a significant amount of high end equipment, and have owned a lot over the years. I have listened to a lot of equipment in my younger years on up to today. I am confident I am somewhere in the top 10% of car audio enthusiasts based on experience, knowledge, and equipment. If I cannot hear a difference from changing out op-amps, that would mean the remaining 90% of people in car audio will not either.

"Here's how to make PG amps sound better." is a blanket statement you have no way of proving, and is simply not true for nearly everyone who owns PG amplifiers.

[Eric D]

Here is a good read for someone looking to learn more about this topic...

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/08/op- ... facts.html

A lot of the points I have made are in there, but some of the text does prove me wrong as well.

And here is a really fun read that should stir the pot...

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

[vwdude]

Virtue, I was following until you brought up the RCAs. I'm a big proponent that any halfway decent cable will do the job the same as the crazy expensive ones (see KimberKable). I don't include the garbage RCAs as they don't really make it into any of my discussions. I'd argue that most of what the expensive cables add is noise rejection (important for car use) and the rest is marketing. Locking terminals, techflex, directional cable (and I'm not talking about shielded cables). Yes it makes it beautiful but won't effect the sound one bit.

One could argue that silver conducts better than copper but that has more to do with resistance on the wire and shouldnt effect frequency attenuation.

These opamps could effect the sound in a much more real way. In theory I can see how it works and soon I'll be able to say if it's real. I tried to I stallthem in an MQ-430 to do an A-B but they are too big for the MQ. Instead I'm doing it with a pair of Ms-275s, one with here opamps and another that's still factory. Il have a pair of he same speakers hooked up on each amp, and I'll run one off the front chan else of the head unit and one off the rear, and I'll fade front and back to see if I can hear a difference.

[Bchester6]

Virtue, I was following until you brought up the RCAs. I'm a big proponent that any halfway decent cable will do the job the same as the crazy expensive ones (see KimberKable). I don't include the garbage RCAs as they don't really make it into any of my discussions. I'd argue that most of what the expensive cables add is noise rejection (important for car use) and the rest is marketing. Locking terminals, techflex, directional cable (and I'm not talking about shielded cables). Yes it makes it beautiful but won't effect the sound one bit.

One could argue that silver conducts better than copper but that has more to do with resistance on the wire and shouldnt effect frequency attenuation.

These opamps could effect the sound in a much more real way. In theory I can see how it works and soon I'll be able to say if it's real. I tried to I stallthem in an MQ-430 to do an A-B but they are too big for the MQ. Instead I'm doing it with a pair of Ms-275s, one with here opamps and another that's still factory. Il have a pair of he same speakers hooked up on each amp, and I'll run one off the front chan else of the head unit and one off the rear, and I'll fade front and back to see if I can hear a difference.

I anxiously await your findings..

[Eric D]

Virtue, I was following until you brought up the RCAs. I'm a big proponent that any halfway decent cable will do the job the same as the crazy expensive ones (see KimberKable). I don't include the garbage RCAs as they don't really make it into any of my discussions. I'd argue that most of what the expensive cables add is noise rejection (important for car use) and the rest is marketing. Locking terminals, techflex, directional cable (and I'm not talking about shielded cables). Yes it makes it beautiful but won't effect the sound one bit.

One could argue that silver conducts better than copper but that has more to do with resistance on the wire and shouldnt effect frequency attenuation.

These opamps could effect the sound in a much more real way. In theory I can see how it works and soon I'll be able to say if it's real. I tried to I stallthem in an MQ-430 to do an A-B but they are too big for the MQ. Instead I'm doing it with a pair of Ms-275s, one with here opamps and another that's still factory. Il have a pair of he same speakers hooked up on each amp, and I'll run one off the front chan else of the head unit and one off the rear, and I'll fade front and back to see if I can hear a difference.

You will need to run the two amps to the same set of speakers, via some switching method. Using two sets of speakers means the speaker placement (even if you put them right next to each other) will be different enough to make a far more significant difference than the op-amps themselves do. Also, I can tell you (from experience), using a fader is not a fast enough method of switching to find a difference. Human memory is that slow when it comes to audio, you need an instant change from one to the other to start finding differences.

[Virtue]

It's a shame knowledgeable people make negative and opinionated comments about a topic/subject they know nothing of... Has anyone ever heard these non op-amp components side by side with even a Burr Brown op-amp replacement? No. So why speak on a subject they know nothing of??? I specifically said that these will make your amp reproduce more accurate sound. Which is better sound... No? I don't care about the vehicle they are in. I was specifically talking about equipment such as an amplifier. A crossover. A CD player. If one has an average system. Don't spend the money. Yet on the other hand, we are not talking about money here. This topic is to share and tell about a product that can push the boundaries of sound from their system that they already have... Are we not are all here to learn and share experiences? What a disappointment. But I guess that's what chat forums are all about... BS ing...

[Eric D]

It's a shame knowledgeable people make negative and opinionated comments about a topic/subject they know nothing of... Has anyone ever heard these non op-amp components side by side with even a Burr Brown op-amp replacement? No. So why speak on a subject they know nothing of??? I specifically said that these will make your amp reproduce more accurate sound. Which is better sound... No? I don't care about the vehicle they are in. I was specifically talking about equipment such as an amplifier. A crossover. A CD player. If one has an average system. Don't spend the money. Yet on the other hand, we are not talking about money here. This topic is to share and tell about a product that can push the boundaries of sound from their system that they already have... Are we not are all here to learn and share experiences? What a disappointment. But I guess that's what chat forums are all about... BS ing...

Are you actually trying to argue these "magic" op-amps you are selling are more accurate (sound better) in an amplifier than the same amplifier with the op-amps removed and bypassed? Please explain how adding anything to the signal path can more accurately reproduce the original signal...

[Mr. Wild]

Here's an interesting thread partly on the same topic.

http://www.phoenixphorum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6466

[knightrider358]

As the man himself said......

May i add, not much more needs to be said as the engineers did the testing them selves

I do have interest in if any great op amps would make a diff in the ms line as they had no xovers and what i prefer since they are a simple designed amp.

Larry Fredrick stated

On the note about modifiying amplifers and supposed sound quality changes:<br /><br />Actually , back in the day, we tried all kinds of shit to improve the sound of the amplifers. One time we (Dom and I) told engineering (Jeff Payton and Ben Heil) that we could hear the difference in opamps. Of course they broke out the "BullShit" card immediately and said "Prove it"!<br /><br />Give us your "list " of the 5 coolest opamps and we will modify 5 PLD1's.<br /><br />So we listed what we currently used JR4560's, then we went to TLO74's, and AD854 (? Hey! it was 17 yrs ago, OK!!) and 2 others. Ranging in price from $ 0.12 cents a piece to $ 4.52 cents a piece. So we set up a listening test with a MS275, our reference THIEL loudspeakers and a Alpine 7909 for source. We didn't look inside the 5 - PLD1's sitting in front of us, but procedded to do our listening tests. After we were done and presented our findings to Enginneering - it turned out that in last place was the JR4560 (the ones we currently used) and the super high buck AD854 was the best. So again, engineering called "BullShit" and said that we looked inside the PLD's and that is how we really determined which was which. We said "No way" we did it honestly!! So they said "OK, assholes -lets see you do it again, and we will remove ALL markings so you can't tell, and change cases even!".<br /><br />So we did the test again. And again, in EXACT same order we chose the opamps! Blew engineering away (me too!!) So, Dom, being the ever tweak said "What if we tweaked the second choice opamp? Which was a TLO74, and biased it too Class A operation and test it versus the AD854? " <br /><br />So we did that and the TLO74 beat the AD854. Enginnering then fully modified a MS275 and chageds out ALL JR4560 opamps to the "hot rodded" TLO74's. We did another listening test comparing a stock MS275 to the super modified MS275. <br /><br />And who won?? Drum roll please!<br /><br />Dom and I could NOT hear any significant difference! And we wanted to! <br /><br />BUT...NO cigar!<br /><br />WE both think that to hear a SIGNIFICANT difference we would have had to change all the caps to WIMA, ALL opamps to the hot rodded TLO74's and done high freq bypass on the large caps. Maybe we could hear a difference. MAYBE? At a cost of about $12.00. Which means it would have cost and additional $60.00 retail. At the time the MS-275 was THE most expensive 75 watt per channel stereo amplifer out there. Making it $60 MORE at retail would have been tough at best. <br /><br />So changing out all the caps to WIMA "theortically" should sound better. BUT...without full "Blind" listeneing tests, I don't know. I wouldn't bet BIG money on it either (even thou my audiophile inner self wants it to believe, my logical side says TEST it first!) <br /><br />Just "food for thought" my friends. I agree that there should be sonic advantages to modifiying amplifiers. But if these mods are made and NOT verified by blind listening tests, then I am the one breaking out the BullShit card (which I have printed up and give out at my seminars, still today!!)

[knightrider358]

Larrys card lmao

uploadfromtaptalk1449510361439.jpeg (9.76 KiB) Viewed 9869 times

[Eric D]

Take a look at this crossover...

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

That page is from over 11 years ago. I replaced the op-amps in it with Burr Brown and could not hear any difference. Even if there was a difference, it was not worth $40 and the time to swap out the parts.

[knightrider358]

Link isnt working eric

[RayBuck]

Working for me.

[RayBuck]

This is a good tread...no reason to be disappointed virtue. I don't work on amps or any electronics so I have nothing to add to the thread. Eric has a passion for all of this and has provided good points and backed them up you have made statements without backing them up. A test of a and b amps is the only way to really make proof of your statements. Not calling you out and not picking sides. Not everyone here is here to bullshit.

[ttocs]

works for me. Interesting discussion folks on all ends. I learned a while back with a record friend not to get into a debate with him about the sound of records vs modern digital as it ended up with him not talking to me for about a month. Its kind of like arguing gun stuff with a gun nut. When you break it down the key work is "nut". I think we can all say we are audiophiles, which is just a fancy word for sound nut....

[RayBuck]

Eric, I have always had your opinion. His company is sending me a set of 6 opamps to try out on an amp (MQ-430). It won't be a true a-b test but I figured it's worth a listen. If the improvement is worth the $70 each then I should be able to hear the difference. If the sound is not improved then no harm/no foul I didn't pay for them, and if it's worse then I'll just go back to my burr brown opamps.

I have 430 that needs the caps replaced could sent it to you I will pay for the caps if you change them out for the a and b test. No mods to my amp and you mod your amp.

[RayBuck]

works for me. Interesting discussion folks on all ends. I learned a while back with a record friend not to get into a debate with him about the sound of records vs modern digital as it ended up with him not talking to me for about a month. Its kind of like arguing gun stuff with a gun nut. When you break it down the key work is "nut". I think we can all say we are audiophiles, which is just a fancy word for sound nut....

Hahaha I have those kind of discussions with a long time friend we just end up saying we agree to disagree and we have had the discussion multiple times. But yes we are all nuts in a good way well maybe some of us.

[Eric D]

I once was in an argument with a local guy about tube amps. He told me tube amps sound better. I told him that was his opinion, and I personally don't like tube amps. He told me I was wrong. The argument became quite hostile at this point.

I have no issue with someone having an opinion. I don't like it when someone tells me their opinion is correct, and my opinion is not, but they have absolutely nothing to back it up with. In the case of my argument about tube amps, the guy I was arguing with primarily listened to 60's and 70's music, mostly blues, and light rock. I on the other hand listen to mostly electronic music, trance, dance, techno, and the like. Tube amps just won't cut it on my kind of music, and no matter how hard I tried I could not get through to him.

Virtue is entitled to his opinion, but he presents it like it is a fact for everyone. If he came in here and said that he heard an improvement in his amplifier when he changed out the op-amps, I really have no way to effectively argue with that. However, he instead stated "Here's how to make PG amps sound better." Well, guess what, I own a bunch of PG amps. Since I have some PG amps, and he stated here is how to make them sound better, it leads me to believe if I do what he claims they will sound better. Well, there lies the problem. What he is claiming won't make MY PG amps sound any better.

The other more frustrating part, for me at least, is knowing that adding these discrete op-amps would most likely make it sound WORSE than better (reasons stated in previous post). I am not selling some competing product, so the only thing I am trying to gain is to prevent members of this forum from making costly and silly mistakes following this thread. Additionally, there is a good chance someone replacing their op-amps with these will actually damage their amplifier. Discrete parts draw a lot more current than a power optimized op-amp will, and there is a good chance the 15V regulation circuit used in vintage PG amps will fail with this load on it.

[Eric D]

Here is a good read for anyone looking to upgrade their op-amps...

https://e2e.ti.com/support/amplifiers/p ... -equipment

The risks are explained far better than I can.

$70 a piece sure sound like a lot of money to risk the swap not working, or the swap damaging the amplifier, or it sounds the same as before, or horror of horrors, it sounds worse than before!

[knightrider358]

Here is a good read for anyone looking to upgrade their op-amps...

https://e2e.ti.com/support/amplifiers/p ... -equipment

The risks are explained far better than I can.

$70 a piece sure sound like a lot of money to risk the swap not working, or the swap damaging the amplifier, or it sounds the same as before, or horror of horrors, it sounds worse than before!

Great info eric....always great to find more info to understand harfware much better!