Spring build question - regarding capacitors

[NotDeafYet]

Gathering all my goodies for spring.

Question regarding capacitors. I have 3. A .5, 1.2 and 2.2F.

Will be running 3 amps. 2 Tweeters, 2 mids and 1 sub.

Do I bank the 3 together for all the amps?
Do I use 1 per amp?
Or do I just use 1 cap for all the amps?

Amps, so far, are gonna be an M50, M44 and M100.
Caps are an oldie lightning audio .5, somewhat older 1.2 PG power flow and a brand new Bully audio 2.2.
Alternator is gonna get upgraded to a 200amp model, with a new Odyssey battery, not planning for an aux battery for hatch/cargo space reasons.
On hand capacitors might remain, or be replaced with "better" as the winter evolves.

Suggestions?

Esthetically, it would be neat to see a cap per amp. It would be neat to see 3 banked caps. It would be clean to only see/use one cap. Ideally, I want the "better" option in terms of "sense" or performance. Cosmetics are a 2nd in terms of my final setup - not planning a show car, I'm a function over esthetics kind of guy. My gear will be hidden more than shown. My vehicle is a hatch, and a daily summer driven work vehicle.

[ttocs]

Do what makes ya happy with them. The gain from caps is minimal at best since they store voltage and most amps are current driven. There are only slight gains to be made putting them in different locations.

[Eric D]

Put them were they look good, but the closer they are to the sub amp the better for that amp (generally only the sub amp will benefit from them)

[NotDeafYet]

Actually, that's a good point. That's why I like asking for opinions... and reading threads all over the place. Educating myself. Learning tricks. And what not to do.

[NotDeafYet]

So I've been reading.. Everywhere.. Soaking up info.

Came across some of Larry Frederick's (comical) posts.

He, in a nutshell, has said that a) caps should always be used, b) used on all the amps, not just the sub and c) anything over 2 farads is pointless/unnecessary.

Who would be to argue against Mr PG himself? I've watched a seminar of his... He's funny. And he's been toying with car audio since 1971. 2 patents. 5 awards. And God knows what other accomplishments.

Anyone?

[Renovatio]

i do believe that for 1000 rms its enough 1 f, for 500 rms 0,5. Dont see any need to use more than 1 f if its not over 1000 rms...

[ttocs]

does he still endorse the use of caps? I didn't think many did anymore....

[trickyricky]

It's not required but it does help, I wouldn't endorse or state that you require or need a capacitor but it's always nice to have one as close as possible to the amp's terminals. Even some of the later Xenon big boys had two positive and negative terminals extra for just that (adding a cap).

I would agree with Eric, subwoofer amplifier would benefit the most but it sure wouldn't hurt having one for each amplifier.

[ttocs]

help what? Help the SQ? Help the spl?

[trickyricky]

I wouldn't say help with SQ or SPL...well perhaps SPL if you busting out quick burps and to a degree could help with SQ if your suffering from voltage drop during those bass notes.

Capacitors have an extremely low internal resistance to current flow, much lower than that of a battery. Capacitors can therefore charge and discharge power much faster than a battery can. Low frequency causes the output transistors in any audio amplifier to remain on and flowing current to the speakers for a longer period than midrange or high frequencies. Low frequency therefore creates the greatest current draw in any audio system. As the source of low frequency in music is usually a drum or bass guitar, the low frequency is mostly in short bursts, or "transients". So subwoofer amplifiers generally draw the most power from an automotive charging system.

[NotDeafYet]

Since I have a few caps, I will use at least one on the sub amp. And for pooh and giggles, I will run one on the front end amp too. The one thing I have read, is that it just flattens the voltage curve ripples. I figure if I was an amplifier, I would prefer a steady voltage number feeding me. For more pooh and giggles, I'll use a voltmeter before and after using a cap to see if it'll make a difference. I doubt I'll HEAR the difference, but if I SEE the difference through the voltmeter, that'll be my answer. I know this cap thing is quite the debate.. hehehe.

For the power end of my setup... I'm upgrading my factory 120 amp alternator to a liquid cooled 190 amp one. Sounds cool eh? And a big honking battery, the biggest I'll be able to fit in that spot. Last time I checked, it was a 300$ Odyssey cinder block. My system current draw should be in the neighborhood of 90 amps.

Not an engineer here.. I'm going to have fun and enjoy building my setup. Haven't had a real car stereo in 20 plus years in my car... PG then, and PG now.

[Eric D]

As you place a load on an amp, the internal rail voltage will sag. This happens even more on an unregulated amp like most PGs are. The number one cause of distortion is going to be "clipping" where the voltage sags far enough to be heard through the speakers.

Adding a capacitor (any amount of it) will reduce the amount of sag. No amount of capacitance will fully eliminate the sag though.

So, putting a capacitor on the amp will let the rail voltage remain higher which directly results in more output power (more SPL), and directly results in a higher point of clipping (better SQ).

[trickyricky]

It will be hard to do an A B comparison in a vehicle, you would need a more controlled environment such as a bench table. I have done some on mine and I DID SEE RESULTS so I won't get into the whole argument of stiffening capacitors, I simply wont...don't want to use them then don't. I just find it amazing that those who claim they don't do shit have never even experimented or measure the results in a scientific way, lol.

See in a vehicle your engine is running it may idle at 1krpm when it's cold and 800rpm when warm and then it will vary when driving of course. So trying to measure and do comparisons is not as easy as doing it on a bench table where you have a power supply than can only provide so much power. Then you can start measuring and writting down numbers, you'll quickly see that adding a capacitor will help increase the output power of the amplifier (as Eric stated, the rail's won't sag as much as before the cap was installed). I did these test with SINE WAVES so this the output transistors were ON 100% of the time no transients (which would be a bit harder to measure and am sure would have a better result in tests) and I got results by adding a 1f cap to my bench.

I now have three 90amp power supplies strapped and that stiffening capacitor helps filter any ripples present on the B+ (EVEN MENTIONED BY THE manufacture of my power supplies, they actually recommend adding a stiffening capacitor to their power supplies).

Again if you don't believe it YET you haven't done any actual testing and measuring then how can you say or speak against it? I sure as hell won't get into the whole argument of caps, that's old.

[ttocs]

It will be hard to do an A B comparison in a vehicle, you would need a more controlled environment such as a bench table. I have done some on mine and I DID SEE RESULTS so I won't get into the whole argument of stiffening capacitors, I simply wont...don't want to use them then don't. I just find it amazing that those who claim they don't do shit have never even experimented or measure the results in a scientific way, lol.

See in a vehicle your engine is running it may idle at 1krpm when it's cold and 800rpm when warm and then it will vary when driving of course. So trying to measure and do comparisons is not as easy as doing it on a bench table where you have a power supply than can only provide so much power. Then you can start measuring and writting down numbers, you'll quickly see that adding a capacitor will help increase the output power of the amplifier (as Eric stated, the rail's won't sag as much as before the cap was installed). I did these test with SINE WAVES so this the output transistors were ON 100% of the time no transients (which would be a bit harder to measure and am sure would have a better result in tests) and I got results by adding a 1f cap to my bench.

I now have three 90amp power supplies strapped and that stiffening capacitor helps filter any ripples present on the B+ (EVEN MENTIONED BY THE manufacture of my power supplies, they actually recommend adding a stiffening capacitor to their power supplies).

Again if you don't believe it YET you haven't done any actual testing and measuring then how can you say or speak against it? I sure as hell won't get into the whole argument of caps, that's old.

I have hooked up plenty of caps to plenty of systems that didn't have them back when I was installing full time and they were all the rage. I can remember more then a few times swapping out gear and making changes that were audibly different/better but never once with a cap. No I have never sat down, hooked up equipment and measured it but lets be clear that neither have you, or really anyone that I have seen has. Anyone ever seen actual data on an A-B cap test?

All I have to say about them is they are a band-aid for a much bigger problem, and a pretty small band-aid at that in most cases. The only reason I do not support them is because I support the idea of do it right, do it once which is why I have a dual battery system and a HO alt that will more then supply the current needed. Most people would be better off putting the money spend on the cap into a new/bigger alt/battery but those do not give the good feelings you get like you do when you slap another part in the system.

[trickyricky]

Really ttocs? lol no one has ever measured a before and after cap installation? D'Amore has but am sure you'll dismiss his measurements as you will mine so no need to provide mine. Shit I can make a quick 45 sec video showing a before and after and am sure you'll still be skeptical or in denial.

Here's a link to D'Amore's test video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsg8Ys9f6BA and below are his results:
RESULTS:
No Capacitor:
1543 Watts RMS @ 13.80V into 4 ohms
2550 Watts RMS @ 13.32V into 2 ohms
3154 Watts RMS @ 12.76V into 1 ohm

With 1 Farad Capacitor:
1613 Watts RMS @ 13.98V into 4 ohms
2666 Watts RMS @ 13.60V into 2 ohms
3426 Watts RMS @ 13.35V into 1 ohm

With 100 Farad carbon supercapacitor:
1620 Watts RMS @ 13.95V into 4 ohms
2616 Watts RMS @ 13.65V into 2 ohms
3260 Watts RMS @ 12.91V into 1 ohm

Engine RPM held between 2200-2500 for all tests.

1F capacitor didn't add any power on the continuous RMS test, but it OWNED the Dynamic Burst testing!!


Turns out you have better results with just a 1F cap then a 100F carbon cap.

As for spending crazy $$ on caps, I never have. I purchased mine for under 20.00, I would never tell someone to spend 100 or 200 on a capacitor, that's were I agree with you and say "buy a better battery and HO alternator" and we both know a good battery cost more than 200.00 as well as a HO alt more than 300.

[ttocs]

Good discussion. well now look at how much of a difference that made. Ok you proved me wrong that it made a measurable difference but to say it "owned" anything I think you need to do the math to realize you just gave yourself a whole %4.5 raise from the cap.... I don't suppose that same experiment was then repeated with a stronger power supply was it? Now take into effect that again no one would be able to hear that difference and if we are only talking dynamic burst tests then I am really wondering what the use is. If it only makes a difference for a few secs and those few secs make a difference then great, waste your money. If you want a system that will pound and continue, upgrade the power supply. Its just that simple and no there are no cheap ways around it. Much like in the hot rod world the rule good/fast/cheap pic 2 works here.

[NotDeafYet]

What those numbers show me, as the the caps do make a difference. Not a night and day, but subtle, every little bit counts.

As mentioned.. having caps on hand, that were acquired for free, or dirt cheap, makes the addition worth it.

The debate on caps, the debate on RCAs, the debate on Amps, the debate on HUs, the debate on xxxxxx....

Ever talk to a hard core cyclist? The type that brag about having handlebars that weight 5grams less than their buddy's handlebars? In the end, it's all about the weight for their bikes.

I think in the audio circuit.. every watt counts.

We just don't wear tight black spandex showing the size of our balls.

[Eric D]

If you had the world's best battery and alternator, plus a huge power wire, the current won't get to the amplifier as fast as a capacitor right next too it can deliver it. This is not really my opinion, it is physics, along with Ohm's law.

Can current getting to an amplifier faster than before be a bad thing?

[ttocs]

how long of a sustained "volume level 11" event on our volume knobs do you think that the cap helps the voltage/power output? Eventually the cap is drained and the power source is now taxed, I just wonder how long that is. I agree that more voltage is a good thing which is why I say upgrade the source of the voltage, not the storage device. I think we could all agree one step further that more current for the amps is even better then more voltage right? Cap doesn't help there so while everyone here is acting like they have one up on me if they have a cap on their stock alt remember that my system will sustain the voltage, and more importantly the current much longer. I see caps as the nitrous of the audio world. Its good for short bursts(although nitrous is much more effective then 5% or your doing it wrong ) and in the audio world I can see that being useful for burping/spl but last I checked we don't have any of those on here. Lets be honest that they are really more of a "feel good/look good" piece of audio jewelry then something that really improves the system for longer then a burp.

[trickyricky]

Honestly you don't get it ttocs, but its all good. Eric and I are not advertising or recommending caps to anybody we are simply trying to explain why they help and how they work.

[Bchester6]

Is there a discernable audible difference? If not then it just seems like another shiny piece of decoration..

[trickyricky]

Are you going to hear an increase of 50watts on a 1000watt output?
Are you going to notice that the distortion of your full range amplifier is slightly increasing to the 1% range or higher due to the mono-block amplifier causing voltage drop?
Are you going to notice that 10-15% underrated power that PG put out back in the day?


Of course not, so I guess all that PG goodness for nothing.


And let's say for the benefit of the doubt it is just a piece of decoration or jewelry.....doesn't that apply to the PG distro blocks? They are all nice and shiny with LED's and what not. Nothing wrong with having it right? Expect this piece of jewelry actually does something, will you be able to hear it....of course not....are you going to be able to feel it, I highly doubt it...lol. You guys are something.

[knightrider358]

My opinion of this debate is this....

Tony D'amore is one the this current industry's leading engineers. He always has proven results.

And scott is also right to a point.

So for me, have a proper, battery, alt, power and ground thru out, and a proper cap. Whats this do....

Best off the worlds.

Proper charging and supplying voltage for all amps, car needs and caps.

No worries on anything and optimizing sound to tge best you can do!

[ttocs]

calm down man no need to say we are anything more then the other end of this discussion. Obviously I don't expect anyone to change their opinions although I will say that there is a measureable difference where I did not before, but I question for how long.

-how long do you get that extra 50 watts for to enjoy? Again with a proper power system like I have take the time and expense to set up I get to enjoy that extra 50 watts as well, just for much longer. I understand that most people are not going to take that time or expense and slap a cap on a 5 yr old battery but tell me I am something and don't get it you don't understand I agree more volts is good, more power out is good, I just say if your going to be serious about it as most of us are here its just a band aid and a piece of feel-good jewerly mixed into one.
-If you can hear a slight tick in the increase of the 1% distortion rate, your a better man then me. Again its not a concern in my car after your cap discharges though so....
Not sure what series you are referring to about the 15% but sure.

Sure the pg distroblocks and battery connectors are audio jewelry. Hell the ones we all love require you wipe off your fingerprints or they will score the black chrome finish just over night. I don't polish my actual jewelry that much.... They are overpriced considering that you can get another brands blocks that do the same thing but we all have a problem here. Sure there is nothing wrong with it and why do I run them? Well why do I run a HO PG alt and a dual battery system as well as a integrated shock/strut/airbag with an automatic ride height system? I said it before I do it right and do it once and be done with it. Now the irony of this is that I do have a 1f cap in that system but I only installed it because I came on one in a bulk buy and i had space and it looked cool. Do I really think a 1f cap on top of a 200A alt and a dual deep cycle batttery is going make a bit of difference? Only to the people that like to look at caps.

[Eric D]

Personally I have never installed a cap in any system of mine. This is largely because I tend to run oversized amplifiers for my need, and don't run them at the extremes. Their internal power supply can do quite well like this.

The very first experience I had with a cap was my friend buying a 1 farad model, for his Rockford Punch 200. When he really beat on his system, the amp would start to distort, and then it would actually shut down. Installing the cap allowed him to turn it up farther than before (more output prior to distortion, so an improvement in SPL and SQ), and the amp would no longer shut down.

Now, maybe he needed a bigger alternator, or maybe he needed a bigger power cable. All I know is I saw the improvement in his system, and knew it was directly related to installing the capacitor. I have seen similar results with countless systems, when I worked for a stereo shop. We seldom sold people caps right away, and instead sold them when people complained about their amps shutting down, or their headlights dimming. Once they bought a cap, the problems were significantly improved (but, never fully eliminated).

If someone does not like caps, good for them. I also don't like having one, as I don't want to drop a wrench while working on my system and have it arc weld to the car. If you like them or not, that makes no difference as to if they work or not, they do work.