Old school car audio - RIP

Need help with your car stereo system? Have a technical question? Post here.
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

ah now I will say the source of your sound is much more important then you make it sound and I don't care what sound processor you use if your adjusting your MP3 streaming bluetooth from your phone I don't care what processor you run it through I would put my F1 system playing the same song against it any day.

I remember hearing the MS8 was the shit and everyone had to have it, till it came out that it wasn't all that it was supposed to be. Heard the same thing about the jbl cleansweep, and even the PG digital EQ. As much as I love the F1 system I will say the pioneer odr is probably a little better/easier to use and was perfectly happy with the EQ215 I had planned to use prior to finding a good deal on the F1.

I also completely disagree that big systems showing off all the gear is not done anymore. If you have access to the right areas the stuff they are teaching now with stacking/router and pumping out(the site I see shows big/led/lit systems daily but is also not available to the general non-12volt public unfortunately) is every bit as showy/disco-bling as anything I remember old school. Take into account some really fancy upholstery jobs that they didn't use to do and I would say you could not be any more wrong. They are just not shown on multiple magazines like they were in the old school days and they are generally done just for better sound/to show off since there isn't that much competitions anymore.

Funny my old systems allowed use of the trunk and now I am planning an MS/MQ based old school stereo that will take up the whole trunk.... Isn't it ironic?

not sure what your trying to say about the old cheater amps. First system I heard competed in the under 100 watt catagory and had a banging system with two mps2240s. When they were set up correctly it could be a nice sounding system that was plenty capable of going loud.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

In home Hi-Fi I went from CDs to stored lossless files years ago. Through a decent DAC there is no difference. I am about to do the same in my car. I have a DAC which runs off 12v. So I can have lossless files from my phone via a cable which keeps it charged. Then the rest of the system is compact and simple old school.

I'd rather have the speakers installed well (point source Morel drivers in the kicks) with no processing, rather than speakers in stock locations with too much processing. As I only need a couple of hundred watts it makes no odds whether my amp is 60 or 90% efficient. Plus my old school kit will probably last forever and can be repaired if required. Can the same be said of anything new? If a Helix or whatever toy of the year dies it just goes in the bin.

I am not anti new. But a mix of new and old can be cool. Especially old school amps :)
freudie1
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:49 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by freudie1 »

First, I like this discussion. Fun!

Now let's continue:

Source: It's important.....to a point. I don't believe in using garbage in the signal chain, but I also don't believe you need a fiber optically connected unobtainium head unit/etc to achieve a great car audio system (emphasis on "car audio system").

Why? Once again, noise floor. I don't care what you drive, unless you listen to your system exclusively while idling or parked in a garage there is a very real threshold of diminishing returns in a vehicle.

Processors: Until you have actually used/installed a Helix Pro you really can't compare past iterations of processors of brand X to it. I do own said processor and I have owned "other" processors from years ago (RF Symmetry EPX anyone? PG EQ230? I have...it was terrible despite tons of effort). Once again, the Helix is small, it's quiet, it has more resolution than you will ever hear (especially in a vehicle once again), and has more options than one would realistically need. Not a salesman for them, just an honest user. It destroys the old processors including the analog eq's/etc from the 90's. You can keep your EQ230 or your Rane/etc. I'll keep my modern processor that replaces four units (eq/xover/time delay/rta) in the size of a small paperback book.


I do agree with you on "auto tuning" processors (i.e. MS8). It's not feasible in a vehicle due to many acoustic variables. I also don't agree with processing to achieve a center channel. I rather install speakers (or better yet HLCD's....but I digress) that direct the sound to where it needs to be. NOTE: I don't agree with some of the posters that time delay is not required. In fact, in a vehicle I think it's essential. You are sitting in a seat with that does not have equidistant path lengths. It's just reality unless you destroy your car with a single center positioned seat (I recall seeing such trailer queens at some audio shows eons ago). BTW, this is also part of why I have never heard a true "2 seat" install in a car. I can always find one seat better than the other in terms of staging and placement.

Bling blang: You win, I haven't seen much in the media (or shows as they appear to be dying/dead). If it exists, I believe it's in garages such as yourself and me enjoy. I have much subtler tastes in that regard (perhaps age?), but none the less what I do see in the wild is rarely the outrageous over the top displays of the 90's.

Trunk space: Congratulations. I've done creative installs as well, however space is always lost due to larger than necessary heat sinks and lots of large/multiple bulky analog equipment if going all old school. I prefer a mix of new and old school as it blends nostalgia with performance (and convenience in my mind). Of course opinions vary here.

Cheater amps: Gimmicks to get into competition classes you had no business in...hence the term "cheater". Be that as it may, I recall the days of the Orion HCCA amps and guys claiming how awesome it was to be able to power a million subs with a single amp. Yep, sure was great.....tons of heat, amps would shut down, one or more high output alternators required, terrible SQ at stupid low impedance values....the list goes on.

As for the comment about repair aspects of old school vs new school (comment about "toy of the year").....you must hate anything newer than the year 2000. That's "progress". It's also not the end of the world for some people (i.e. I'd be mad, but not life ending if an $800 device went tits up). On the flip side, try finding a competent (major emphasis) component level repair tech for old school gear. I gave up a long time ago. Schematics are rare, actual skilled techs are rare, parts are rare (goofy PPI Molex connectors anyone?).

Lossless audio: I completely agree on this. I play audio via a usb stick. Indistinguishable between a CD if ripped with enough resolution. MAYBE if I sat in the garage with the engine off and my eyes closed I could hear some difference. If that's what turns your crank at night then hey ENJOY. From my point of view that's ridiculous. I enjoy my system while driving kids around to events, going on simple errands, the occasional road trip to the in-laws. If I want to REALLY enjoy my music (i.e. eyes closed, fine bourbon in hand, kids asleep) I go into my dedicated theater room and close the 56 STC rated door where I can obsess about every aspect of Billy Joel's voice or piano playing (btw, I am seeing him live tomorrow so to anyone reading this before Friday....I'm being wonderfully spoiled by my wife and will enjoy this infinitely more than any car system experience I've ever had or will have....I digress).

Continue....I enjoy this discussion....really do.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

Good post. I think we are in the same ball park here.

I love many new things, as said such as lossless files and the convenience of all your music on shuffle. That alone is incredible compared to back in the day. So my front end storage and control, DAC, plus front Morel speakers are all new kit. New certainly has a great place at the table!

I don't use processing at all as I prefer to mount the drivers a long way off to minimise the PLDs. In a car that is decent enough imo. If I were to have processing then a new box of tricks would be used.

Yet nostalgia is a big part of car audio for me. I am not aiming for ultimate perfection, as it is in a noisy car environment after all. The system needs to be decent enough, but any more than that is potentially wasted. So with that in mind I then like to throw some old school in the mix for amps and subs. I thrill of finding older items brand new in the box is so cool. It is like being young back in the 90s all over again.

Ps

I still think a lot of new products can be good, but many things seem to be cheaply made in China. Yet carry high prices and don't seem to be very reliable. I won't mention names but you know where I am coming from. This is a bit annoying as I love premium build quality and things which last. Or at the least can be repaired. New digital amps or processors are not likely to last forever. Nothing highly complex built down to a price will. That is just life.
Virtue
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by Virtue »

I've been building systems for decades now. My true enjoyment were in the mid to late 90's. Yes, products were a fortune to buy. Made in the USA. Technology had finally come out where it was good. But, guess what, we all had to work hard to purchase something that meant the world to us... and to the most part, we still have that product. Not every kid on the corner had what you bought. So, it was cool to talk to and show your friends what you just bought with your hard earned money. So, the appreciation was there. No one today has appreciation for product because it is cheap to buy, it's mass produced, everyone in the dog's world has it, and no one cares what 'brand name' equipment you have... so there is no joy anymore.

Today, anyone can buy a deck that has all the bells and whistles with a built in 'super fast' processor chip and make a shitty system stereo system good to listen to. Try making it sound the "Ultimate" without this technology. It's takes time, more time, and even more time to tune with different products, different placements, different cables and you learn a lot! So the appreciation was there because of the hard work. This has changed today...

I used to love Lamborghini's, they were an exotic car in my books. But, since they opened up a dealership here, everyone has a Lambo. So, this (now), mass produced car is not so exotic to me anymore... Sad, but true.

I remember a thread about on how to make your PG amplifier sound better with some new circuits that eliminate op-amps. I was slammed for such a thought! As one can see, there is no appreciation anymore with talking and learning about how to make the "Ultimate" sound system anymore. Changing times I guess. Concerning me though, I am proud to say that I can sit back and build a sound system that can make you emotional and even cry, without the use of a processor... This is the "ultimate" in my books. Larry Fredricks would agree with me here...

Now, on the otherside, all that I can say is that, if you burn out and older amp, you can still fix it! There were no surface mount components back then. LOL.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

Great post. It is amazing how damn good high end speakers can sound in a dead simple passive system with no processing at all. Yes it takes longer to instal, but so cool when it comes together.
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

yes this is fun its been a while that we have had a discussion that had no flames.

Takes longer to design/install a proper sounding passive system with but less time to tune. I have always kept it simple prior to this but I am looking forward to having the digital relm to play in with the F1 gear.



Now fruedi1 has mentioned a couple of times that the noise floor ruins everything or the idea that the car is a place that we cannot master the sound in for some reason but keeps plugging helix as the end all be all solution to perfectly align an mp3 file from a factory system. Yes a car is noisy and has all kinds of things to work around from engine noise(electrical and audible). That is the challenge on making it sound good. If you are going to harp that it will never sound as good as a your perfectly set up theater well I agree and if that means you can't enjoy the sound, sorry for you. You also keep mentioning old school gear always overheating, taking up too much space and cheater ampswere worthless. I do remember the larger spl competition system going into thermal and taking up every inch of space and that is basically what they were designed to do. They were not made to play all day at low levels nor meant to leave you enough space to put your golf clubs in the back. I personally remember more then a few nice simple competitions systems that sounded amazing and the one that comes to my mind was in an MR2 so space was at a premium from the start. A properly set up system played correctly will not over heat but I think the cars you keep mentioning were just bass machines not meant to play all day. The old competitions SQ systems didn't have these issues since the SQ comps were not about spl.

now 6ix says he would rather have speakers in correct locations then speakers in stock locations with too much processing. I am asking why you would not want speakers in the correct locations with the correct amount of processing? Sure you could take it too far and ruin it but I have a hard time thinking that if I adjust the EQ settings to what I think sound best to me that it would not be better yet then no processing?
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
Virtue
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by Virtue »

ttoc, 6ix was agreeing with my previous comment. He was not, in any way shape or form, complaining about processing... His comment was based on this "Old School car audio, RIP" thread. You'll have to catch up on all the other comments to this thread first. :D
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

Oooooooooooooooooooooh. I will have to give some thought to reading this then.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

I am sure that speakers in perfect positions with perfect processing will sound the best. I've heard the results in top end cars. But to go down the processing route means two things:

1. Turning your back on old school. You are one app away from throwing it all away and buying new stuff made in China. No matter how good it may be, that is not for me. Although I guess / hope Alpine F1 does not fall into this category as it is mid school era.

2. You are chasing perfection and will never be happy and always fiddling or swapping kit out. So once again, you are in danger of systematically throwing it all out to buy the latest new things.



I am not saying I will never use processing. But if I do it will likely be in the form of high end kit made somewhere I respect. Perhaps a German made Brax amp with all the processing built inside.

Whatever you do is your call. We all enjoy the same hobby. So do your thing and have fun. I will try and keep the old school alive a few more years yet :)
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

turning my back on old school - ooooooooooooooooooo-kay. wouldn't the loss less system you are so keen on also be turning your back on old school? I am catholic and confess my sins regularly and are forgiven after saying my hell mary's so I am not afraid of using an EQ/processor to help the sound. As far as I am concerned turning your back on anything that could help the sound is a bigger sin then "not being old school". I love PG and yes old school gear as well but in the end I am just a fan of clean good sounding music that I can crank if I want too.

Yes indeed I am chasing perfection and yet realize that nothing is perfect. If you are not chasing perfection in your stereo, what are you chasing? Just good enough for what is available since your going to be listening to the kids top 10 most of the time? To me the challenges that a car poses in making good music from the power requirements/limits that are placed on a cars electrical system to the places where sound is blocked either by your leg in by the kick panel or from not being mounted at the same plane is all part of the fun of mastering the sound in my car. I mean anyone can make great sound in an empty room with all the space in the world, no problems with power limits or a noise floor. That is just boring imo......

So just curious, do you adjust the bass/treble settings at all? If so why?
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

Lossless files do not sound any different to CD. I did a back to back on high end home kit years ago to come to that conclusion. So I am not sacrificing anything at all by leaving the CDs on a shelf at home. In fact it means I will be able to enjoy my entire music library on shuffle. So that is great. I do not classify my music storage (whether that be lossless files on a HD, stick, or phone) as part of the car audio system at all.

My actual car system is old school. That may evolve over time, we'll see. I have no real issue if you wish to use F1 kit and have a play. I am sure it will be really great. I can imagine doing something similar at some point, if there really is a need.

My main personal goals are the following:

1. Keep it as simple as possible.
2. Only buy decent quality kit built to last, from decent countries of origin.
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

I think you missed my point about my lossless/old school comment. you have already mentioned more then once that lossless is the same as a cd to you, no need for a 3rd pass on that track You'll have to catch up on all the other comments to this thread first. :D You said that with me going with a processor that I am turning my back on old school. They had digital eq's back at the end of the old school era but lossless seems to me came after that point. :)

I am also very happy that you do not have an issue with me using my F1 gear lol.... But now remember if you do try it someday that you are now turning your back on old school lol.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

Well TA and all that processing is not old school is it. So using it is no longer old school. There is no escaping that really.

If there were TA / processing products made outside of China I may be interested, at some future point. So far I only know of Brax.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

ps

I wasn't sure what your point of lossless was, hence me repeating myself. Plus I added that file storage is not a physical part of car audio installation anyway. So that was both possible angles covered. HTH :)
User avatar
kg1961
Got wood?
Posts: 9051
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Calgary

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by kg1961 »

With fast car there will always be loud engine muffler ect go light and have fun
This is what I'm doing
My drive alway bring me a smile now I want to add a little low end and go faster...lol
most of my gear is gone :liar:
2020 honda accord sport
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio -

Post by ttocs »

yes you do love lossless I know I know I know as you have literally mentioned how wonderful it is in half your posts. Just like you have no issue if I use my F1 gear I just don't care what method you use...

I agree with mike my music always makes me happy. I am not upset if I hear the exhaust over it hell I have side exhaust and electronic cut outs installed if I want it louder. You might even say I like the sound, because I do and have even got compliments at lights from complete strangers. Noise floor? not sure what you mean calling my exhaust "noise" :) If I don't want to hear the exhaust I just turn it up no need to sit in the garage with the motor off and my eyes closed.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

If your car is as loud as it comes across, you could probably settle for a tape deck, never mind TA :lol:
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

well yes now the car has a very full list of bolt ons. Vortech supercharged, snow meth cooled, ported upper/lower intake, trickflow heads and cam, jba headers, magnaflow X and then the side exhaust mufflers and cut outs. It also has every inch of the car sound damped with 2nd skin damplifier pro on all surfaces(floor, door skin, door panel, roof) and then the floor also has 2nd skins luxury liner on top of that. The cut outs are actually mounted after my catalytic converters because I wanted to bridge the input/output of the side exhaust muffler so no matter if the cut outs are open or closed it always exits through the tips. Because of that the cut outs allow you to hear more of the motor while not getting all that much louder if that makes sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV68IN3XbY8
Last edited by ttocs on Sat May 28, 2016 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

That sounds amazing. I'd love something like a Mustang in the UK. So cool. Post up some photos!
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

Well thanks, I guess... Your saying you like my noise floor? Do you like it enough you could pull it into the garage and turn the stereo off and close your eyes and enjoy? :) Thats cool! A few years ago I was at a stop light waiting to make a left hand turn when the semi next to me on the passenger side suddenly honked his horn. It was strange since we were well back from the intersection and the light was no where ready to change yet. So out of curiosity I looked out the pass window to see the driver and to do this in a lowered mustang meant I had to almost put my head on the passenger seat to look up. When I did there was a big old black guy with a cigar smiling down at me and when he saw me he asked me to give it some gas. I did and he let said it sounded great and said he would go slow enough around the turn to let me get in front of him if I would get on it when the lane was clear. Who was I too say no? Anyway thanks again and feel free to look it all up/down.

http://driiive.com/ttocs/1994FordMustangGT/

but back on topic If I have my wish for the stereo it will be a mix of old/new. I am looking at old amps(MS/MQ series) old Ti Elite/morel 3 ways and then the F1 gear for the source/processing.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
Bchester6
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:14 pm
Location: Oside, Ca.

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by Bchester6 »

Although amplifiers and processors have become slowly replaced by smaller more efficient technological offerings, the aesthetics and presentation of said products have suffered. In my opinion, there is really no argument when it comes to the use of materials and the thought put in the OS amps but whatever. I am not going to generalize and say it's all ugly... but it is and gone are the days where you were proud to pop the trunk and show people your gear. Furthermore, I would put my old school set of A/d/s or Boston Pro comps over pretty much anything produced these days. You may be able to convince me of advances in amps/processors but a speaker is still a speaker?
ttocs
the Floor Sweeping Hack with Golden Ears
Posts: 14783
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2008 9:53 pm

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by ttocs »

speakers have not changed much except for subs now with the longer throws they can do. Same thing in general but they can produce more spl because of it.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
User avatar
Bchester6
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 10:14 pm
Location: Oside, Ca.

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by Bchester6 »

Subs would be the exception to the rule there if you like that spl thing...
User avatar
6ix
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:28 am

Re: Old school car audio - RIP

Post by 6ix »

Decent component speakers back in the day were Dynaudio and Morel. They are still the ones to go for brand new today, IMHO.
Post Reply