Phoenix Gold Phorum

Replacing the opamps is to make the amp sound about 100,000 times better

This is a quote from dr Fosgate.

What the heck is a opamps??

Is it only on M-series, or is it on MS-series too?

(Is that quote true?? In that case.. are you changing mine aswell, 1moreamp ?? hehe )

off-topic but theres is a MS-1000ta in Sweden : http://forum.lazzat.se/showthread.php?t ... ge=1&pp=20

As far as I know, all PG amps except for the ZPA series have op amps. It is definitely possible to upgrade them. Very simple actually on the M/MS amplifiers. When you get into the newer models like the Ti amps, there are many more opamps, which makes it a lot more work to replace them.

Pedi wrote:

Replacing the opamps is to make the amp sound about 100,000 times better

This is a quote from dr Fosgate.

What the heck is a opamps??

Is it only on M-series, or is it on MS-series too?

(Is that quote true?? In that case.. are you changing mine aswell, 1moreamp ?? hehe )

Ask Bdubs about his MS-275's, or Jed about his Ti500.4'S. BB op-amps are nice, and are a can do on most any amp. I will add it to your wish list. It gets pricey on later model amps, but M and MS amps are affordable to do, but you will want your crossovers done also.
I am doing MY ZPA crossover in BB op-amps soon. I will post about that soon. C

Pedi wrote:

Replacing the opamps is to make the amp sound about 100,000 times better

This is a quote from dr Fosgate.

What the heck is a opamps??

Is it only on M-series, or is it on MS-series too?

(Is that quote true?? In that case.. are you changing mine aswell, 1moreamp ?? hehe )

Only if they suck. It doesn't make a HUGE improvement unless you're dealing with an improperly designed circuit. In many cases, "upgrading" the OpAmp causes more problems due to instabilities.

By the way, if you replace an Op Amp and hear an immediate increase in "brightness" or "clarity" - the OpAmp is probably oscillating. Look at it on a scope sometime.

thingy wrote:off-topic but theres is a MS-1000ta in Sweden : http://forum.lazzat.se/showthread.php?t ... ge=1&pp=20

i wonder if i can pay him with chocolate bars

theburb wrote:

thingy wrote:off-topic but theres is a MS-1000ta in Sweden : http://forum.lazzat.se/showthread.php?t ... ge=1&pp=20

i wonder if i can pay him with chocolate bars

Or Meatballs.

Or Cheap Furniture.

By the way, if you replace an Op Amp and hear an immediate increase in "brightness" or "clarity" - the OpAmp is probably oscillating. Look at it on a scope sometime.

Well yes the above mentioned could happen if you don't pick the correct op-amp for the circuit design. certain things must be the same between the chips overall performance to make this swap out work correctly.
I have never had the above situation happen, and yes I do own and use a scope all day long. Most of you guys here have seen me at my bench so I rest my professional case on the issue of bad workmanship that Arron has so thoughtfully mentioned.

Nothing electronic can be done willy nilly. Everything must be thought out and carefully attended to, if not the price gets rather high, like one personal reputation.

1moreamp wrote:

By the way, if you replace an Op Amp and hear an immediate increase in "brightness" or "clarity" - the OpAmp is probably oscillating. Look at it on a scope sometime.

Well yes the above mentioned could happen if you don't pick the correct op-amp for the circuit design. certain things must be the same between the chips overall performance to make this swap out work correctly.
I have never had the above situation happen, and yes I do own and use a scope all day long. Most of you guys here have seen me at my bench so I rest my professional case on the issue of bad workmanship that Arron has so thoughtfully mentioned.

Nothing electronic can be done willy nilly. Everything must be thought out and carefully attended to, if not the price gets rather high, like one personal reputation.

Ahh, it was supposed to be a generalization at the normal "shop and swap" modders that buy the most expensive rail-to-rail OpAmp knowing nothing of its actual performance in the circuit.

I will still have to disagree with the 100,000 times increase in SQ. It's not nearly that obvious.

I'm not sure who said the 100,000 statement, it might have been Doc Fosgate, but I'm not sure about that I never read his post about BB op-amps.

I been doing my own thing with these since 1990, so the only info I read about it I usually find elsewhere on other Bulletin boards and such.

PG seems to have used more standardized high end circuitry in their front ends and I have never seen any issues BBing PG's products. It does improve SQ IMO. The BB chips just perform at such a higher level then the run of the mill Op-amps. Lower noise related issues, lower distortion across the band, no phase reversal on overload conditions, lower output impedance, higher output drive voltage levels.

National Semi has come out with a couple new chips for pro audio, they seem to have the right specs, but QC and individual tested characteristics are my big selling point. BB guarantees performance of each and every chip to spec in writing and each chip is serialized for ISO-9000 trackability.

You just don't see that sort of QC on lower grade op-amps, after all the money I have spent on my gear, the cost is justified IMO so I go for it whenever I can.

I'm looking for a chance to BB my Xenon 200.4 soon also, along with a DC offset adjustment addition coming soon. I wont be posting this till its done to my gear first. But its coming.... C

OK I looked it up and Doc Fosgate says 100,000 times better

And Morgan West of Exile and X-PG say 1,000,000 times better

And audiophiliac says eleventy billion times better.

Now there we now know who says what in the 6 digit and above category

but Jed told me MASTER OF PG Larry Fredricks said no difference..


I have yet to listen but C does amazing work jsut take a look..

http://phoenixphorum.com/bdubs767-vt869.html

I'm looking for a chance to BB my Xenon 200.4 soon also, along with a DC offset adjustment addition coming soon. I wont be posting this till its done to my gear first. But its coming.... C

Cecil, Sure it's yours? It's mine !!!

easy wrote:

I'm looking for a chance to BB my Xenon 200.4 soon also, along with a DC offset adjustment addition coming soon. I wont be posting this till its done to my gear first. But its coming.... C

Cecil, Sure it's yours? It's mine !!!

Actually it is Cecil's he's a X200.4 whore as he owns 3 or 4 of them himself.

Yes its yours on the bench, and what a mess it is I must say Whew !.

I finally broke down and sold one of mine to a shop friend, So i now only have two 200.4's and i have a 200.4 that belongs to another forum member also.

So the total is 5 around me currently, and a boat load of others. I repaired a Alphasonic 1500.1 today < cloned Asian junk> looks like a Dubs series amp by Autobahn inside, blown outputs and blown output filter caps, and a RF Punch 450.4 God they are getting cheaper inside everyday, and this Rf was a B stock, with a previously blown channel < factory fixed> cutting out due to cheap ass rca's.

Oh well back at it tomorrow guys C

1moreamp wrote: You just don't see that sort of QC on lower grade op-amps, after all the money I have spent on my gear, the cost is justified IMO so I go for it whenever I can.

I'm looking for a chance to BB my Xenon 200.4 soon also, along with a DC offset adjustment addition coming soon. I wont be posting this till its done to my gear first. But its coming.... C

Why you so smaht, C? Yous is few and far between in the car audio world. At least among those with a workbench in front of them.

I've never seen the pic of you and your workbench.

bdubs767 wrote:but Jed told me MASTER OF PG Larry Fredricks said no difference..

He did say that in blind listening tests no one was able to pick the burrbrown equipped amp. (IIRC they were dealing with an MS model). But, he also said that Morgan West was involved in the testing, so it seems we have a bit of conflicting information here.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to do a solid A/B test with my equipment as the setup was far from optimal for serious listening when the amps were swapped out. I wouldn't be surprised if when I do complete the comprehensive testing that I can hear a marginal improvement, but I seriously doubt that it would be along the magnitude as previously described here.

Cecil replaced 18 of these chips in each of the ti multi-channel amps I had upgraded, and he did a magnificent job at that! Yes, it was an investment that many would find laughable considering the minimal (if any at all) improvement but that's what you run into at the high-end side of audio. It's called the law of diminishing returns. At some level of performance improvements become marginal at great expense. Some of us who are truly passionate about the hobby are just willing to make that sacrifice!

dedlyjedly wrote:Some of us who are truly passionate about the hobby are just willing to make that sacrifice!

Or what my ex girlfriend liked to call SICK.

tell her its better then smoking ice..........

thats what i tell my wife..she replied with good ill remember that the next time i buy clothes

I'm looking for a chance to BB my Xenon 200.4 soon also, along with a DC offset adjustment addition coming soon. I wont be posting this till its done to my gear first. But its coming.... C Smile


Cecil have you had a chance to make the upgrade yet? If so could you hear a difference in the sound quality?