Can the elite xo run with out the tweeters connected?

Haz · Post by **Haz** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:33 pm

Hi,

Can I connect the elite x/o without the tweeter connected, just the Ti5 conneted. Will this damage or effect the function of the x/o in anyway?

Thank You
Haz

Post by **Bfowler** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:57 pm

GOOD QUESTION!

Post by **AVICJR** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:01 pm

Wouldn't it just affect the impedance of the load put on the amp?

Post by **Bfowler** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:03 pm

the mids themselves are a 3.6ohm driver, but i am not sure if that is enough to throw of the crossover or not.

I'm pretty confident nothing BAD would happen, but I'm not 100% sure of if the cross-over point will be altered

Haz · Post by **Haz** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:08 pm

The reason I asked was because I'm running a Ti951 setup active and someone said to me that "the motor strength is not good on the Ti 5 and 6 mids, because they decided to make the driver faitly low profile to ease installation. Because of this, they put lots of extra 'bits' in the passive crossover to flatten out the frequency response"

Haz

martinkruit · Post by **martinkruit** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:15 am

Are you using the passive crossover?

if so, whate is it 12 dB?

when it is 12 db dont disconnect the tweeter the amp will see a short circuit at a certain frequence and will go in protect (at medium volume)

Haz · Post by **Haz** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:27 am

martinkruit wrote:Are you using the passive crossover?

if so, whate is it 12 dB?

when it is 12 db dont disconnect the tweeter the amp will see a short circuit at a certain frequence and will go in protect (at medium volume)

I will be running the Ti951 active however with a morel supremo tweeter. And the crossover will be from the Alpine F1 status PXI-H990 processor so I can select whichever frequency at any slope from 6-30 db (i.e tweeter frequencies will not be passed to the ti5 at anytime due the crossover point of 1800Hz at 6db between the Ti5 and the supremo). I was just concered connecting the Ti5 without the elite xo may make then sound unnatural so I wanted to just connect the mids to the elite xo and not the tweeters since the tweeters will be run active and are different range (morel supremos).

Marko said that it should not make a difference if the tweeters are connected or not to the elite xo with the ti5 however the elite xo must be connected in order to give a flat response which pg desired.

So justed wanted to confirm if the elite passives will work properly without the tweeters connected

Haz

martinkruit · Post by **martinkruit** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:14 am

If there is a Xo between the amp and the speaker and the xo is 12db you the amp will see a short circuit when one off the speakers is not connected.

marko · Post by **marko** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:13 am

martinkruit wrote:If there is a Xo between the amp and the speaker and the xo is 12db you the amp will see a short circuit when one off the speakers is not connected.

never heard of this before?? i'm sure the elite is a 24db affair.

Haz · Post by **Haz** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:14 am

marko wrote:
martinkruit wrote:If there is a Xo between the amp and the speaker and the xo is 12db you the amp will see a short circuit when one off the speakers is not connected.
never heard of this before?? i'm sure the elite is a 24db affair.

I was confused with that too?

Haz

Post by **Bfowler** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:15 am

also..and it might be a feature on the xenon amps...i disconnect drivers pretty often from my crossover while the amp is on to listen to my phase as i reverse it....music continues to play throw all the remaining drivers.

Post by **stipud** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:23 am

If you're running active, don't use the passive... just run the mids on their own.

martinkruit · Post by **martinkruit** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:55 am

If you use a passive crossover (only with a 12 dB version) there is a RESONANTIE KRING (Stipud can you translate this for me?) this acts as a short circuit at a certain frequence.

Just try it ones disconnect one off the speakers from your passive x-over turn up the volume and see the PG gets in protect.

Post by **Eric D** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:01 am

martinkruit wrote:If there is a Xo between the amp and the speaker and the xo is 12db you the amp will see a short circuit when one off the speakers is not connected.

He is right, and this is a very very bad idea. It may work for a short period of time, but depending on the crossover design, it may present the amplifier with a dead short, or it may cause a capacitor in the crossover to blow (I have seen this happen, and it is no fun).

Post by **stipud** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:06 am

martinkruit wrote:If you use a passive crossover (only with a 12 dB version) there is a RESONANTIE KRING (Stipud can you translate this for me?) this acts as a short circuit at a certain frequence.

Just try it ones disconnect one off the speakers from your passive x-over turn up the volume and see the PG gets in protect.

Resonance loop?

Post by **Eric D** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:16 am

A tweeter circuit for example with a 12db slope would be a capacitor in series with the tweeter, and an inductor in parallel with the tweeter, and wired after the capacitor. The capacitor allows high frequencies to pass, and the inductor shorts out low frequencies, but after the capacitor, so it does not present the amplifier with a dead short.

If you remove the tweeter, you now have a capacitor and inductor in series and connected to the amplifiers terminals. This is basically a bandpass filter, with a dead short as a load, not a speaker. At a certain band of frequency, the amplifier is presented with a dead short, and the capacitor and the inductor will be taking the maximum current during this short. Either the inductor will overheat and burn its insulation, or the capacitor will overheat and possibly burn though its internal insulation. If the caps burns and shorts now your amp is presented with a dead short for both low and band pass frequencies. Generally, amp death will soon follow.

At very low volume, this may not have immediate results, but it still is putting a big strain on the components of the crossover.

marko · Post by **marko** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:25 am

so how does, say a 24db crossover react? and what's so magic about the elite passive that a F1 processor can't fix?

Post by **Eric D** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:28 am

24db is the same, just a pair of 12db in a row. Same deadly outcome if you pull the tweeter. There is no magic the F1 would not be able to fix.

Post by **Eric D** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:30 am

I take it the Elite crossover does not support bi-amping? If it did, then you could just not use the tweeter input and output section.

If you must use the crossover for just the mid, then you would need to cut the traces on the circuit leading to the tweeter portion. You could always solder them back in later if need be.

Haz · Post by **Haz** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:37 am

Eric D wrote:I take it the Elite crossover does not support bi-amping? If it did, then you could just not use the tweeter input and output section.

If you must use the crossover for just the mid, then you would need to cut the traces on the circuit leading to the tweeter portion. You could always solder them back in later if need be.

How would I go about doing this? Do you have pictures in which you can show me a tutorial how to do this. Only if you live in the UK i could have send you the elite xo to do this for me

Marko can you (or do you know anyone in the UK) who can do this for me?

OR would the elite Ti5 mid be fine running active without the elite xo?

Thank You
Haz

Post by **Bfowler** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:40 am

could he wire in a resistor into the tweeter "outs" to make the corssover think the tweeter is in place still?

Post by **Eric D** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:08 pm

Bfowler wrote:could he wire in a resistor into the tweeter "outs" to make the corssover think the tweeter is in place still?

Yes, but it would get real hot and be a waste of amp power.

Post by **bdubs767** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:13 pm

HAZ

you have one of the best DSP proc made...run everything active, junk the passive.

marko · Post by **marko** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:14 pm

Eric D wrote:
Bfowler wrote:could he wire in a resistor into the tweeter "outs" to make the corssover think the tweeter is in place still?
Yes, but it would get real hot and be a waste of amp power.

he's running your old ms1000ta on the mids so don't think power is gonna be an issue!!

i'm not familiar with the inards of the elite passive so don't know how to perform the mod..

Post by **Eric D** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:14 pm

Haz wrote:
Eric D wrote:I take it the Elite crossover does not support bi-amping? If it did, then you could just not use the tweeter input and output section.

If you must use the crossover for just the mid, then you would need to cut the traces on the circuit leading to the tweeter portion. You could always solder them back in later if need be.
How would I go about doing this? Do you have pictures in which you can show me a tutorial how to do this. Only if you live in the UK i could have send you the elite xo to do this for me

Marko can you (or do you know anyone in the UK) who can do this for me?

OR would the elite Ti5 mid be fine running active without the elite xo?

Thank You
Haz

I have never taken an elite crossover apart, so I do not know how it is setup. If you found the first series item in the signal path for the tweeter and removed it, or removed one of its leads, this would completely remove the tweeter circuit.

This just adds one more reason to my growing reasons I don’t like the Elite crossovers and feel they are an engineering abomination.

1) Both channels in extremely close proximity of each other which reduces separation

2) LEDs in the signal path which no matter how insignificant will still color the sound in some way over not having them in there (more evidence the crossover was developed by a marketing team, not an engineering team)

3) No bi-amp option to accurately level match tweeters and mids if you so choose