Ti600 to Ti400 difference to the ear?

[ELmx479]

I'm using a Ti600 to power my sub and trying to figure out my dimming problems so just for the hell of it I tried the Ti400 on the sub to see if the dimming would still be there. I set everthing the same as I had it on the 600 and I couldn't tell a difference between the output of the 2 at all. Should this be?? I mean that 400 really pushes the sub well. I thought there would be a decrease in overall output for sure.

Sub is a Fi Audio SSD10 with copper coils 800rms.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

You could alway test the amps for actual power output as installed by playing a 60Hz tone and using a normal DMM set to VAC and measure the outputs. Then use the formula I always forget to measure your power output into the ohm load you are presenting.

It would be interesting to see how much difference in power the sub is actually seeing to sort this out, although more experienced people will probably have better suggestions. It could be that the difference in power output is small enough that it's very difficult to hear an audible difference in presence and volume.

[ELmx479]

Ya I would like to know how to test the amp using a dmm.

[nutxo]

I'm using a Ti600 to power my sub and trying to figure out my dimming problems so just for the hell of it I tried the Ti400 on the sub to see if the dimming would still be there. I set everthing the same as I had it on the 600 and I couldn't tell a difference between the output of the 2 at all. Should this be?? I mean that 400 really pushes the sub well. I thought there would be a decrease in overall output for sure.

Sub is a Fi Audio SSD10 with copper coils 800rms.

3db for everytime you double power.

[stipud]

3db for everytime you double power.

Yep, so with 200 watts difference, you are only getting 1.5dB or so at most, which is barely audible.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Apparently 3db is actually the theoretical maximum increase in volume if you double the power, real life numbers will generally be lower as well due to some of that power escaping as heat and other things like the woofer's own capabilities.

So yeah, you're seeing a maximum of 1.5db increase in output by going 400W to 600W, but likely even less.

What you may have improved upon however is the "headroom". However, if your sub never broke up on the 400 (clipping/distortion), that probably won't even be a factor.

[ELmx479]

Apparently 3db is actually the theoretical maximum increase in volume if you double the power, real life numbers will generally be lower as well due to some of that power escaping as heat and other things like the woofer's own capabilities.

So yeah, you're seeing a maximum of 1.5db increase in output by going 400W to 600W, but likely even less.

What you may have improved upon however is the "headroom". However, if your sub never broke up on the 400 (clipping/distortion), that probably won't even be a factor.

You miss read my post. I went from the 600 down to the 400. But ya I guess 1.5 would be really hard to tell by ear but I figured since its just a single sub I would notice a decrease in output.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Apparently 3db is actually the theoretical maximum increase in volume if you double the power, real life numbers will generally be lower as well due to some of that power escaping as heat and other things like the woofer's own capabilities.

So yeah, you're seeing a maximum of 1.5db increase in output by going 400W to 600W, but likely even less.

What you may have improved upon however is the "headroom". However, if your sub never broke up on the 400 (clipping/distortion), that probably won't even be a factor.

You miss read my post. I went from the 600 down to the 400. But ya I guess 1.5 would be really hard to tell by ear but I figured since its just a single sub I would notice a decrease in output.

The first time I read it I'm pretty sure I knew you were talking about 600->400 but apparently I forgot and didn't read it again.



Now, to actually test power output you're going to need one of two things:

- A 60Hz waveform burned to a CD or on your iPod/MP3/whatever + DMM

or

- A "TrueRMS" DMM

Then, you just either play the test tone with your amp at the maximum settings you use for listening and measure the output terminals of the amp or you just play the music you listen to (at your listening max again) and measure with your TrueRMS meter set to Min/Max so you can capture the maximum power output. I'm pretty sure you do this without your load (sub) connected and then use that formula I referred to that utilizes the ohm load you present to the amp when your driver is connected and it gives you the total wattage of your amp's output.

Man I suck at explaining...

[ELmx479]

Haha, its ok. I understand. I have a CD with 1-100Hz test tones and a DMM. Should I use 60Hz for sure? Also what is the forumla?
My sub is a D2 wired in series but shows 3 ohms on the DMM. Should I use 3 or 4 ohms for the calculation?

[stipud]

http://phoenixphorum.com/gain-setting-w ... vt280.html

[ELmx479]

http://phoenixphorum.com/gain-setting-w ... vt280.html

Thanks man. So I would take 600watts X 4ohms = 2400 AC?? That don't seem right?

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

http://phoenixphorum.com/gain-setting-w ... vt280.html

Thanks man. So I would take 600watts X 4ohms = 2400 AC?? That don't seem right?

It's the square root of 600 x 4 ohms (assuming that really is the load presented to the amp) so the number you should read at full output should be something like 50VAC.

[ELmx479]

I found that voltage calculator and it says each channel should be at 20v AC with the Ti400.2 Well I set the gain using a dmm and it reached 20 volts per channel with the gain less than half way up and the bass down the entire way. When playing music at those settings there is almost no output from the sub. And if I turned it up alittle more it could reach 30-40 volts AC very easy. What does that mean?

[flogger11]

I'm using a Ti600 to power my sub and trying to figure out my dimming problems so just for the hell of it I tried the Ti400 on the sub to see if the dimming would still be there. I set everthing the same as I had it on the 600 and I couldn't tell a difference between the output of the 2 at all. Should this be?? I mean that 400 really pushes the sub well. I thought there would be a decrease in overall output for sure.

Sub is a Fi Audio SSD10 with copper coils 800rms.

Its pretty obvious whats going on. Because your setup is not providing enough current to the Ti600, of course the Ti400 will sound the same. The voltage will not sage near as much with the smaller amp. Your big boy Ti is just not getting enough juice to give you the extra power it is capable of producing! So in reality, with your current wiring setup both amps will be producing the same amount of power, the difference being its alot easier on your charging system AND easier on your amps internals to run the Ti400. And by the way, with the proper charging system and caps, the Ti600 WILL RUN CIRCLES around a Ti400, trust me. Good luck bro! Mike

[ELmx479]

I'm using a Ti600 to power my sub and trying to figure out my dimming problems so just for the hell of it I tried the Ti400 on the sub to see if the dimming would still be there. I set everthing the same as I had it on the 600 and I couldn't tell a difference between the output of the 2 at all. Should this be?? I mean that 400 really pushes the sub well. I thought there would be a decrease in overall output for sure.

Sub is a Fi Audio SSD10 with copper coils 800rms.

Its pretty obvious whats going on. Because your setup is not providing enough current to the Ti600, of course the Ti400 will sound the same. The voltage will not sage near as much with the smaller amp. Your big boy Ti is just not getting enough juice to give you the extra power it is capable of producing! So in reality, with your current wiring setup both amps will be producing the same amount of power, the difference being its alot easier on your charging system AND easier on your amps internals to run the Ti400. And by the way, with the proper charging system and caps, the Ti600 WILL RUN CIRCLES around a Ti400, trust me. Good luck bro! Mike

I have a 110 amp alternator, Optima YT, 4 gauge for each amp. The voltage doesen't really drop any lower with the 600. I think being that its only one 10 sealed 150-200 watts is most likely a 1db difference between the 2 amps. (with my current set up)

[flogger11]

If your lights are dimming on the bass notes, your voltage is sagging and your amp is starving...

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Not sure how significant this is but the fuse ratings on these two amps differs 10-20A depending on your speaker load configuration, not much really.

[flogger11]

I'm using a Ti600 to power my sub and trying to figure out my dimming problems so just for the hell of it I tried the Ti400 on the sub to see if the dimming would still be there. I set everthing the same as I had it on the 600 and I couldn't tell a difference between the output of the 2 at all. Should this be?? I mean that 400 really pushes the sub well. I thought there would be a decrease in overall output for sure.

Sub is a Fi Audio SSD10 with copper coils 800rms.

Its pretty obvious whats going on. Because your setup is not providing enough current to the Ti600, of course the Ti400 will sound the same. The voltage will not sage near as much with the smaller amp. Your big boy Ti is just not getting enough juice to give you the extra power it is capable of producing! So in reality, with your current wiring setup both amps will be producing the same amount of power, the difference being its alot easier on your charging system AND easier on your amps internals to run the Ti400. And by the way, with the proper charging system and caps, the Ti600 WILL RUN CIRCLES around a Ti400, trust me. Good luck bro! Mike

I have a 110 amp alternator, Optima YT, 4 gauge for each amp. The voltage doesen't really drop any lower with the 600. I think being that its only one 10 sealed 150-200 watts is most likely a 1db difference between the 2 amps. (with my current set up)

Just your amps require 130 amps to run most effectively! Plus you have to power your motor, lights etc! Your Ti600 running a bridged 4 or 2 ohm load requires 80 amps and your Ti400 at 4 ohms stereo requires 50 amps to run at their maximum. You need a larger alternator, 2/0 wire to a distribution block, then 4 gauge to each amp. You will also need at least 1 fd capacitor, ideally a 1 fd on the Ti600 and 1/2 fd on the Ti400. I didnt realize you where running only one 10" sub, so yes, if your charging/wiring systems were up to snuff you probably wouldnt see much of a difference. However, when you are underpowering your amps, the voltage sag is very hard on the amplifiers internals and may cause problems in the long run. The bottom line is you need to either dump the Ti600 for something smaller if you are not going to upgrade your charging system. If you do upgrade your power, you will want to add another sub to really use all the extra juice. Good luck man! Mike

[stipud]

Hold on a sec there flogger, those amperage ratings are based on playing test tones. As far as I know, most people listen to music. The dynamic nature of music is much easier on a car's electrical system. While I would recommend bigger than 4 gauge wire, 2/0 and a huge alternator would definitely be overkill for a 600.2 and 400.2. Dual 4 gauge is sufficient, at least, as long as the battery to frame has the same grounds (dual 4 gauge)!

I would attribute dimming problems to cranked gains and clipping, not necessarily his power distribution. Once he set his gains properly, he said that it sounds like there is "almost no output". This tells me that he is used to cranked gains and bass boost, which also tells me it's damn likely that he is clipping his amps under regular conditions.

ELmx, i'll sum it up for you...

The reason your amps sound very similar is because the 200watt difference in amps only contributes to a ~1-1.5db gain. This is not an audible increase, unless you are A/Bing very quickly I suppose.

The reason your headlights are flashing is because you have your gains and bass boost set too high. With your gain set properly, it is normal that your sub doesn't make much noise at all, on typical music at least. If you were to play a -0db test tone however, it will put out as much voltage as the amplifier is capable of, so it would be very loud. If you keep playing your amps with gains and bass boost up like you have them, then they will break in a very short amount of time.

Now what I might recommend to you is buying an LPL. It's very cheap, and what it basically does, is reduce the volume of your amplifier remotely. This way you can set it at say, 50%... then set your amp gains using the guide I linked you. This way you can get some volume INCREASE for songs with quieter bass, decrease for songs with louder bass, or you can put it back in the middle if you are playing songs with loud bass, or test tones. Of course with great power comes great responsibility, if you leave the volume cranked up when you're playing test tones, again you will clip the amp and possibly break it.

Please read this, it will tell you all about clipping:
http://bcae1.com/2ltlpwr.htm

Another thing to do is make sure you have good grounds. Upgrade your battery to frame grounds to the same as the wires you pass back to your amps. That is, dual 4 gauge (or a single 2 or 0 gauge). Upgrading your alternator to battery cable to 4 gauge will help as well.

[flogger11]

The only reason lights dim is because of a voltage sag. No, a person should not use the bass boost crap as it eats power like mad, but that will not cause the lights to dim unless you are overtaxing the charging system...

[stipud]

The only reason lights dim is because of a voltage sag. No, a person should not use the bass boost crap as it eats power like mad, but that will not cause the lights to dim unless you are overtaxing the charging system...

Absolutely, I agree with you. I just think that bass boost and poorly set gains are the main culprit in his case, not a small alternator or power wire. Even with a huge alternator and power wire, he'd still be clipping the amps, causing damage to them and drawing down the voltage as a result.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

Just for reference's sake (again!) my Toyota 4Runner has a 60A alternator and I have zero problems running my both M100 and M44 to very loud volumes. I have no noticeable voltage drop, in fact my blinker drops the voltage more than my M100 ever has. That said, I really don't push my system to it's limits very often.

The M100 has a rating of 70A in my configuration and the M44, somewhere over 23A. So 100A at full bore with test tones.

I'm using 1/0 from an Optima RT to distro block then 4 to each amp. I suspect dedicated 4 to each amp is more resistive, but by how much, I don't know.

[Bfowler]

^duel 4awg is more then adiquate. for that setup...the 1/0awg is a bonus!

as the rule of thumb goes: every 3DB on the bass gain is double the power draw....so it doesnt take a whole lot to make your charging system beg for mercey

[ELmx479]

I don't see how the amp could be clipping. I have the gain at 60% and the bass at 50% and i'm using the LPL to control that on the 600.2 running at 4ohms bridged. I also have the gain set at 50% on the 500.4 which is running my tweeters at 8ohms stereo and my mids at 3ohms stereo.
I never listen to music at full volume either.

The lights only dim now when i'm at idle due to the alternator not putting out full power at idle. I have a 4 gauge for each amp. the grounds are good. Just got a new Optima YT battery. I left the factory ground there which is 4 gauge and added a 4 gauge to the side post which goes to the chassis then to the block. I also put another 4 gauge from the block to the cab on the firewall. The factory alt to battery is 4 gauge also.
All of the connections are good too.




This is the ground under the center console. One for each amp..

[stipud]

I don't see how the amp could be clipping. I have the gain at 60% and the bass at 50% and i'm using the LPL to control that on the 600.2 running at 4ohms bridged.

Turn off your bass boost completely! Every 3dB of bass boost requires the amp to make double the power! Bass boost is the devil!

Instead what you should do is turn your gain up, then use your LPL to control the bass volume. This way you can turn it up and down according to the music that you are playing. It will be a lot easier to keep the volume in check than with bass boost.