Subwoofer power handleing ratings...

[Jacampb2]

I am bored again, and this has been bugging me, so I will ask you guys

Does anyone else find that current subwoofer power handeling ratings are a little bit unrealistic? The thing that sparked this thought for me, was when I was doing some reading on home brewed amplifier designs, and the author mentioned that he had had a lot of requests for higher power amplifiers than his biggest design, which is 500W, and that he thought the desire for larger amplifiers was ridiculous. He mentioned that plugging a 8 ohm speaker, directly into US 120V 60Hz mains voltage, is the same as providing it with a 1800W 60Hz unclipped sine wave, and how long do you think your sub will survive?

It just really struck a chord with me. We are talking about a 3 or 4 inch diameter coil of wire, and very little ability to heat sink it, with the exception of metal coned drivers. It seems most subs on the market today are rated for about 500W RMS, and higher end stuff goes much, much higher.

From what I am finding, it seems very few manufacturers will list their testing method. I found it very interesting that Cerwin Vega does list their test method, and it is using the EIA RS-426B method. This test is amounts to powering the driver with it's rated RMS power for 8 hours straight. If a manufacturer does not list their test method, it really makes me wonder if there is some sort of trickery going on. I actually have a hard time believing the rated specs for my old school CV strokers, but when you see now, subs rated for 2Kw or 4Kw (the new CV strokers are rated here, and with the same standardized test as the oldies) I just can't grasp it. How can they possibly dissipate all of that heat?

So how about it? Would you wire your high end sub for 8 ohms, or pop a couple in series for 8 ohms and plug them into the wall? I really, really want to, just to see... I won't though, I can't easily replace what I have and I don't even trust a well known manufacturer like CV to be honest.

Okay, I am done rambling. Midnight shift makes me chatty!

Later,
Jason

[flogger11]

I am bored again, and this has been bugging me, so I will ask you guys

Does anyone else find that current subwoofer power handeling ratings are a little bit unrealistic? The thing that sparked this thought for me, was when I was doing some reading on home brewed amplifier designs, and the author mentioned that he had had a lot of requests for higher power amplifiers than his biggest design, which is 500W, and that he thought the desire for larger amplifiers was ridiculous. He mentioned that plugging a 8 ohm speaker, directly into US 120V 60Hz mains voltage, is the same as providing it with a 1800W 60Hz unclipped sine wave, and how long do you think your sub will survive?

It just really struck a chord with me. We are talking about a 3 or 4 inch diameter coil of wire, and very little ability to heat sink it, with the exception of metal coned drivers. It seems most subs on the market today are rated for about 500W RMS, and higher end stuff goes much, much higher.

From what I am finding, it seems very few manufacturers will list their testing method. I found it very interesting that Cerwin Vega does list their test method, and it is using the EIA RS-426B method. This test is amounts to powering the driver with it's rated RMS power for 8 hours straight. If a manufacturer does not list their test method, it really makes me wonder if there is some sort of trickery going on. I actually have a hard time believing the rated specs for my old school CV strokers, but when you see now, subs rated for 2Kw or 4Kw (the new CV strokers are rated here, and with the same standardized test as the oldies) I just can't grasp it. How can they possibly dissipate all of that heat?

So how about it? Would you wire your high end sub for 8 ohms, or pop a couple in series for 8 ohms and plug them into the wall? I really, really want to, just to see... I won't though, I can't easily replace what I have and I don't even trust a well known manufacturer like CV to be honest.

Okay, I am done rambling. Midnight shift makes me chatty!

Later,
Jason

I have done just what you said! A very smart gentleman by the name of steve davis told me the same stuff, we plugged a 4 ohm (ohms dont matter one diddly in this case) 12" sub (from a trade in) into a wall socket, and wow! For about three seconds the speaker went wild before going up in smoke, literally!

[stipud]

Most power ratings aren't truthful at all. Some companies rate "peak" performance... their 100w amp is rated 1000w (when all the planets are in alignment, and the pope farts in his hat). There's no law or anything against doing so. I'm amazed with all the lawsuits these days that manufacturers haven't gotten sued yet for not holding to standards of measurement.

PG rates the RSDs with CEA specifications at least... but they still rate the Octane series based on "max" output. Kinda dumb if you ask me, considering they are sold right next to RSD amps, which makes them seem like they put out LESS power.

[rolandk]

PG speaker power ratings are derived from number crunching the specs and real world testing: put it in a box, pound the crap out of it for a full day at a certain level and if it lives, keep increasing the the level each day until it dies. This is what I do for a living The signal source is usually pink noise or a bass cd. The RSd and Ryval speakers have also been long-term tested in an enviromental chamber.

[Rold Gold]

Years back, I saw a JBL woofer plugged into 120v FREE AIR and it just started movin. The rep left it going for a couple mins too.

I've always over-powered my subs but never to the point of abuse. I'm also a firm beleiver in a break-in period of time for ANY speaker.

Rolandk- Do you use a new woofer everyday? And if so, do you give it a break-in period before testing?

[rolandk]

Rolandk- Do you use a new woofer everyday? And if so, do you give it a break-in period before testing?

Yes, and not really, just a few minutes at a moderate level while getting the test set up.

[Rold Gold]

Have you found that not giving a break-in period effects the woofer at higher power levels? Would it really even matter?

[rolandk]

Breaking in vs. not breaking in shouldn't really effect the power level capacity, so for this particular test it don't matter. In general though breaking in a speaker is a good idea.

[Rold Gold]

I was more thinking that a woofer that's been broken-in might perform better at high volume/power levels and thus may effect it's overall capabilities. I know that some of the newer sports cars have a break-in milage period inwhich the computer wont allow the engine to produce it's peak HP until said milage is reached.

[rolandk]

I know that some of the newer sports cars have a break-in milage period inwhich the computer wont allow the engine to produce it's peak HP until said milage is reached.

In the motorcycle world there are two schools of thought in breaking in a new engine, baby it for certain period of time (like the manfacturer recommends) and the 'ride it like ya stole it' (which I'm a believer) like this guy says http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[Jacampb2]

I have replies and/or q's for all of you, so I wont do a bunch of quotes...

flogger11- The impedance does indeed matter. At 4 ohms, the power is going to be ~3600W RMS. If what you are saying is you were just trying to destroy it, then, you are right, it doesn't matter

Stipud- I am not really worried too much about amplifier ratings. I have only used PG for a very long time, and they are by far the most honest, and historically under rated manufacturer I have ever dealt with. Add to this, that it is relatively simple for the average end user to roughly quantify the output of their amplifier with basic testing methods, and at the very least, open it up and observe the construction, and how robust it is. It matters little to me, unless I am trying to mod it, as I do trust PG.

rolandk- I am not attempting to question PG's methods, but I appreciate hearing the test described. I would say that in the world of drivers, PG now has a conservative rating compared to most.

The problem is that there is no good way that I have found for the end user to test for themselves, w/o risking destruction of the driver. The way I see it, if PG is testing the driver to destruction, than taking the average power level it handled for a day or 8 hours or 4 hours. Then holy baby jesus, what can the thing handle for a 10 minute jam session, or even better yet 10 seconds in a SPL competition, and is this the how some manufacturers come up with their numbers?

Later,
Jason

[KHPower]

This older Audiobahn Immortal takes a wall socket for 45 minutes
http://realmofexcursion.com/videos/Audi ... al15.1.wmv

[rolandk]

Rolandk- Do you use a new woofer everyday? And if so, do you give it a break-in period before testing?

Yes, and not really, just a few minutes at a moderate level while getting the test set up.

Oops! I mis-read your question. We use a new woofer at the beginning of the test and run it until it dies, usually takes several days.

[rolandk]

rolandk- I am not attempting to question PG's methods, but I appreciate hearing the test described. I would say that in the world of drivers, PG now has a conservative rating compared to most.

Later,
Jason

All good bro, legit question and was not taken as a knock against PG.

[Rold Gold]

Dood !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats what I wanted to hear. I'm slow sometimes. They seem to be the "phorum boner"(as I've herd it called) these days. Brian's was gettin rowdy... and now we're seeing ported enclosures........
I'll have to think about a couple sets of the RSdc's for my Lincoln project. Bridged off an M50 per pair..... maybe use the M100 to run RSdc 10's upfront in kicks .......

I know the question has been asked, but is there any chance of seeing a RSdc component set........ I might consider putting a lean on my soul for a set or 2.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

I know the question has been asked, but is there any chance of seeing a RSdc component set........ I might consider putting a lean on my soul for a set or 2.

There is always a chance that PG will wow us again, so keep those fingers crossed.

[denim]

For a company as small as we are (SSA), out of good business sense, we rate our drivers very conservatively. This helps reduce people who have more power then they know what to do with blow the drivers and try to pull warranty issues that we just cannot afford. So our best bet is to build a great speaker and play it safe.


And fuzzysnuggleduck, I have my fingers crossed!

[Rold Gold]

Denim- The ICON woofers are almost identical to the RE Audio XS line woofers. And are similar in specs..... I like the RE's a buddy of mine has but have never owned one myself. He has 3 XS12's getting 1200w each and it's LOUD.

How does SSA do the testing for ratings?

How is the price point compared to the RSdc's?

[denim]

Denim- The ICON woofers are almost identical to the RE Audio XS line woofers. And are similar in specs..... I like the RE's a buddy of mine has but have never owned one myself. He has 3 XS12's getting 1200w each and it's LOUD.

How does SSA do the testing for ratings?

How is the price point compared to the RSdc's?

The Icon shares some parts with the SX drivers from RE, as do many other drivers. But the SX is built and designed as a loud street pounder type sub, and the Icon, though it may look similar (based on basket type and motor height), is on the other end of the spectrum for the most part, many different internals. It is SQ first and foremost, it cannot take the peak burst power the SX can, but it will play flatter across the range and get down deeper with a fuller bottom end. I am not saying it won't get loud, but we do not suggest it as a part time SPL comp sub like the SX is, and don't expect it to put up the SPL numbers the SX has. The Icon is more at home in a sealed box then an SX, but still thrives ported.

As for power ratings, we work with our build house and build and test for one level before production and rate some what under that. (Working on an 8" model for another line right now). The other co-owner of SSA has a Sundown 1500D @ 1ohm on an Icon 10 in a ported box in his daily driver. We don't suggest or recommend people running that much power, but we know it can hold it. Another thing is we try not to cater the Icon towards people who want to run high power and just want to be loud and show off, that is not what it was intended for. We are addressing the issue of 1500+ watts and even higher xmax with another line, and a smaller everyday 300-500 watt driver with a 3rd line.

I hope that did not offend any PG heads just wanted to clear up the asked question, as our speakers will not come close to putting a percentage point into PG's sales numbers. There are less then 80 total SSA production drivers built. We are such a small boutique brand it does not make a difference in the market.

[stipud]

I hope that did not offend any PG heads just wanted to clear up the asked question, as our speakers will not come close to putting a percentage point into PG's sales numbers. There are less then 80 total SSA production drivers built. We are such a small boutique brand it does not make a difference in the market.[/b]

No problem at all. As you have probably noticed, half of the discussions here are regarding brands other than PG. We've got a wonderfully diverse group here with a variety of tastes from oldschool to newschool, SPL to SQ, etc. So I really see no reason to limit discussion to PG only... that would be extremely bland!

I must say that I respect you and your company very much. Starting an audio company from the ground up must be some seriously trying work sometimes. You seem to do an excellent job representing your company across a whole slew of message boards. I've got nothing but the utmost respect for do-it-yourselfers and enthusiasts, and you and your company seem to cater to that exact image as well.

I would love to try out one of your woofers one day, but we all know money doesn't go on trees... that and it's next to impossible to get any cool stuff up here in Canada

[Bfowler]

i think one needs to be thrown into the nixe when we oneday do a RSDc, RE, Tero, others, shootout

[Rold Gold]

I would be interested in demo-ing a woofer also. I enjoy seeing new products emerge and start competeing with the high-end audio giants. JL started like that. So did many others. These days, I just can't take 90% of the car audio companies seriously due to shitty product/performance. Thats why I love the ol'school PG gear so much. It says "I'm rated for 50 watts x 2 but I put out 500."

[denim]

I hope that did not offend any PG heads just wanted to clear up the asked question, as our speakers will not come close to putting a percentage point into PG's sales numbers. There are less then 80 total SSA production drivers built. We are such a small boutique brand it does not make a difference in the market.[/b]

No problem at all. As you have probably noticed, half of the discussions here are regarding brands other than PG. We've got a wonderfully diverse group here with a variety of tastes from oldschool to newschool, SPL to SQ, etc. So I really see no reason to limit discussion to PG only... that would be extremely bland!

I must say that I respect you and your company very much. Starting an audio company from the ground up must be some seriously trying work sometimes. You seem to do an excellent job representing your company across a whole slew of message boards. I've got nothing but the utmost respect for do-it-yourselfers and enthusiasts, and you and your company seem to cater to that exact image as well.

I would love to try out one of your woofers one day, but we all know money doesn't go on trees... that and it's next to impossible to get any cool stuff up here in Canada

Thanks for the kind words, we are all out of pocket so it is slow going. And I admit, not getting paid for it yet, is hard to justify to the wifey.

[denim]

i think one needs to be thrown into the nixe when we oneday do a RSDc, RE, Tero, others, shootout

When we do our next build run, it might be worth sending one out.

[Rold Gold]

What's cost on 1 for us here?