PG Xenon X1200.1 Troubleshooting Help (Long Post)

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:28 am

Ok guys, I have a problem with my new-to-me amp that I need to get figured out. I bought the PG Xenon X1200.1 from a member on DIYMA and it arrived a couple days ago. The packaging was good and did not appear to have suffered significant damage during transit.

Please let me point out that I called the seller on this problem and he has been more than 100% cooperative. He has assured me that if I decide the amp is faulty that I can send it back to him and he'll refund my money. I really really don't want to do that though because I really want this amp. He has been more than supportive and helpful and I do not want ANY negative light on him for this problem. I am 100% convinced he had no knowledge of the problem beforehand.

I already have a full setup in my car including a 12" PG Rsd12d sub wired to 2-ohm powered by an Eclipse XA1000. My head-unit is a Kenwood Excelon X590 with 4v pre-outs. Even though I have a DCX-730, the sub is currently getting signal straight from my head unit.

I drove home from work yesterday with my old setup and everything was working exactly as always. I got home, disconnected the battery, and swapped the amps. Everything lined right up as far as wiring goes and it was a quick swap. I fired up the car and I was getting next to no output from the sub. I had to turn off the mids because they were putting out more bass than the sub and I couldn't even tell it was on until I turned them off.

The amp powers on fine and is not going into protection. It just has very little output. With the car off I measured 12.54 volts at the battery, 12.44 volts at the battery input on the amp, and 12.24 volts on the remote turn on lead. Even with the gain cranked up to 3/4 (well above the input sensitivity required with my head-unit) AND my subwoofer control on the head-unit turned all the way up I was still only getting 10 volts AC coming off the amp outputs at 3/4 volume on the head-unit. This was taken during some rap music, not a 60hz sine wave. The measurements stated were peak numbers when the bass notes were hitting.

Note: I had my digital multi-meter on the 200v AC setting and it was displaying 01.00. I took this to be 10 volts but it could be 1 volt, I'm not sure if I was reading it correctly.

The amp has two sets of speaker outputs that are wired in parallel internally. The left set was getting a max AC voltage of 00.80 and the right I was getting the 01.00. I tried both to no avail. The amp has subsonic filter and 24db/octave crossover. Neither is defeatable. I had the subsonic at 5hz and the crossover at 100hz.

Next I plugged in my laptop directly to the amp and used that as the source. The result was identical. Adjusting the gain in any of the above situations did not have much effect on the output. It got slightly louder, but not much. It sounded like there was at most 50 watts going to the speaker when I had all the levels cranked. Each time I tried something, I started with the gain at minimum and slowly raised it.

Finally, I swapped my old Eclipse Amp back in and after fixing a phase issue everything was exactly as it was before I started. I am pretty convinced that there is a problem with the output stage of the amp but I wanted to make sure I'm not missing anything or overlooking something. What part of the amp would be suspect if it is putting out some noise but the output is very low?

If it helps, here is a link to the manual for the amp:
ftp://208.187.38.55/Phoenix_Gold/Man...plifiers/XENON

Any help you guys might be able to provide will be greatly appreciated. I am going to power it up on the bench tonight and make things as simple as possible and try it again. If it still doesn't work I'm going to take it to a shop to have them test it. If it STILL doesn't work, I'd like to look into getting it repaired and I'm sure that the seller will be more than accommodating in paying for the repairs. I really want this amp and I don't want to send it back if there is nothing wrong but I really feel I have narrowed it down here.

Post by **AVICJR** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:38 am

The X1200.1 has two power input terminals(bottom right and top right), first try and connect both of them to see if you have any difference

Post by **VW337** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:43 am

Rotate the SSF to full counterclockwise and the XO to full clockwise, see if this helps. Also those amps wil take a 13volt RMS input without clipping do not be afraid to open the gain to 100%.

When the amp powers on are you hearing a click internally at all?

I would guess that you have verified the signal is being presented to the input and not the AUX out on the amp?

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:48 am

AVICJR wrote:The X1200.1 has two power input terminals(bottom right and top right), first try and connect both of them to see if you have any difference

I did not try the top right (auxilery) power inputs. I will try that out tonight.

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:49 am

VW337 wrote:Rotate the SSF to full counterclockwise and the XO to full clockwise, see if this helps. Also those amps wil take a 13volt RMS input without clipping do not be afraid to open the gain to 100%.

When the amp powers on are you hearing a click internally at all?

I would guess that you have verified the signal is being presented to the input and not the AUX out on the amp?

I hear a loud click when the amp turns on, coming from inside the amp. I am definitely putting the signal into the input.

I played with the subsonic control and crossover in all combinations of things. It didn't increase output at all, just filtered the signal.

Post by **AVICJR** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:50 am

Also those amps wil take a 13volt RMS input without clipping do not be afraid to open the gain to 100%.

Does the same go for the X600.1's? I feel like I have my gain turned up to high (just over half), but I know that my sub needs a little more gain to keep up with the mids.

Post by **Bfowler** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

i cant speak to 13volts....but it laughs at my eclispe 5volt.
im hoping my Kenwood x590 (someday i will put it in, ive had it since christmas) will have a little truer "5 volts"

either way i will be running a tld66
i can really tell the difference when i bump up the voltage with my line driver

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:08 am

I can't even find any Phoenix Gold dealers within 50 miles of my place.

Post by **VW337** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:19 am

All the Xenon amps have the same gain stage 13 volts no worries, though it is not really realistic in most cases.

I can't even find any Phoenix Gold dealers within 50 miles of my place.

For what purpose? Repair or purchase? repairs all go back to PG.

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:00 pm

VW337 wrote:All the Xenon amps have the same gain stage 13 volts no worries, though it is not really realistic in most cases.

I can't even find any Phoenix Gold dealers within 50 miles of my place.
For what purpose? Repair or purchase? repairs all go back to PG.

Well, I just figured a retailer would best be able to test it and tell me if there is something wrong with it or not.

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:03 pm

If it needs repair is it best to send it back to PG or would I be just as well off having a local place repair it? I would assume PG but I don't want to pay an arm and a leg. I assume it is definitely worth it to get it repaired?

Post by **AVICJR** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:09 pm

PG will charge you $135 to repair it. Or there is a guy or two that post on here that can fix amps.

Post by **VW337** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:10 pm

PG is typically cheaper than a local. Plus PG does not release schematics, so who knows what will happen at a local place.

http://www.phoenixgold.com/2004/warranty.html

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:45 pm

$135!?!?!?!??!?!

Without even knowing what the problem is they just throw that number out there? I have had amps repaired for $50 before.

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:49 pm

yeah, they use a flat rate system. the good thing about that is that unless the entire board is replaced then $135 is the cap on the repair expense. i believe they also run the amp thru their AP to confirm proper performance after the repair.

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:51 pm

dedlyjedly wrote:yeah, they use a flat rate system. the good thing about that is that unless the entire board is replaced then $135 is the cap on the repair expense. i believe they also run the amp thru their AP to confirm proper performance after the repair.

Wow, expensive, but at least you know it's done right. The guy I bought it from is actually supposed to be paying for the repair if it in fact needs to be repaired. I'm not going to get the amp back for like 2 months am I?

dedlyjedly · Post by **dedlyjedly** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:54 pm

you'll have it back much quicker than that (unless the recent downsizing has changed things). usually PG has the amp for only a couple of days before turnaround.

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:55 pm

dedlyjedly wrote:you'll have it back much quicker than that (unless the recent downsizing has changed things). usually PG has the amp for only a couple of days before turnaround.

That would certianly be nice.

Post by **Bfowler** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:00 pm

it may seem expensive, but the customer service has always been amazing. they have always called me to talk about the problem i was experiencing and walked me though parts of their process.

TWICE on amps they have given me new cases when mine were beat up. and once the repairer saw my ship to address (i happen to be local) and offered to just drive it to my work because it was on his way home.

another thing to note is that xenons use surface mount boards, which is much harder for normal repair guys to work on.

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:02 pm

Bfowler wrote:it may seem expensive, but the customer service has always been amazing. they have always called me to talk about the problem i was experiencing and walked me though parts of their process.

TWICE on amps they have given me new cases when mine were beat up. and once the repairer saw my ship to address (i happen to be local) and offered to just drive it to my work because it was on his way home.

another thing to note is that xenons use surface mount boards, which is much harder for normal repair guys to work on.

I have already decided I will be sending it in if it needs repair. The guy I bought it from has agreed to pay for the repairs, or at least most, so it really doesn't matter to me. I just hate to have to go through all this in the first place. It is very dissapointing.

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:17 pm

Send it to PG. I don't have the outputs in stock (IRFP360LC), if thats what you need. I would have to order the driver board if it was at fault also. The rest I stock.
Yes I have seen the insides of a 1200.1 or two. So I do know whats in there and what I have stock of in my shop.
If your power supply was fried I got you covered <common stuff like that>
The rest I would have to order from PG, just like anyone else that would be doing you any justice at all on a repair

Post by **mr tibbs** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:49 pm

I told you , you should have sold it to me!!

I hope it gets worked out man! At least you have an amp physically in your hands, I can't even get that!

02bluesuperroo · Post by **02bluesuperroo** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:51 am

This is a PM that I sent to the seller of this amp today. Explains the problem I had, as well as apologizes to the seller for my mistake. Thanks to those of you that helped clear up the problem. Turns out, I was just afraid to crank the gain as high as it needed to go.

Rob

I'm really sorry to keep you waiting but I didn't want to say decisively one way or the other until I knew for sure. On Friday I hooked up the amp on my "test bench" and fed it signal with my laptop. I measured the AC voltage it was putting out and after cranking the gains almost all the way up, I was hitting 36 volts. This is the equivalent to ~648 watts. I knew that the thing must have been good at that point because I was just powering it off of a spare car battery (fully charged) and the signal voltage was very low.

I hooked the thing back up in the car and made sure my ground was good. (I don't know if it was or wasn't before. I always ground in the same spot on a seat bolt but when I did it before a piece of carpet may have been pinched in between part of the O-ring. I don't suspect that it was but it is possible.)

After hearing people on www.phoenixphorums.com saying you really need to crank the gains because this/these amps can take an input voltage of around 12 volts rather than 8, I gave it a lot of gain. To my surprise, at about 9/10 gain the thing was putting out plenty of power (voltage). I think the biggest error on my part was being afraid to give it that much gain. I still do not trust where the gain is but the amps sounds very very nice and it pounds my one Rsd12d into submission.

In the end it would put out in excess of 70 volts easily if it was clipping (no speaker connected) and I set it to reach a maximum of ~1000 watts (44 volts AC output @ 2 ohm) and I am very pleased. You have yourself a very satisfied customer.

I want to apologize to you for any stress I caused which was primarily my own error, and also partly my own fear of damaging my equipment. In any case it was not at all your fault and you didn't deserve it. I appreciate how helpful you were and how willing you were to go out of your way to make me satisfied. I'm really glad it all worked out in the end and I sincerely apologize for the confusion I caused. If anyone asks for a reference in the future, please give them my name, as I would be happy to vouch for you honesty and integrity any day.

Thanks again, great amp!

Rob

Post by **AVICJR** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:27 am

Glad to hear it all worked out, you still need to power both input terminals per PG recommendations. That bastard will take it.