Phoenix Gold Phorum

So I am a fan of both, but I haven't actually heard a TI system touch the SQ of my old MS setup I had in my Saleen a LONG time ago... granted some of that could have been quiet car, but I have had TI systems in other quiet cars that didn't sound as "sweet"...

So, the question is, which SOUNDS better... I want the best SQ I can possibly have. I will be using aan Alpine/PXA for the source, Focal Utopias for the components and a 12W7 for the sub.

What I am leaning towards now that I have more amps is my original MS2250 with shroud running 3 ohm mono to the sub (at least 1000 RMS), and my MS1K running front and back speakers... I figure since its a little less powered than the original MS stuff, and it doesn't have a fan to keep it cool... Plus I bought extra 10th ANIV plexi, so it will all say 10th Aniv and all be white (matches). I know the insides and LEDs won't match, but it will be CLOSE enough...

The other option was to run my Offroads active to the speakers. These are 600Tis but are rated like 75ish at 12 volts (comparing to MS power) This would give me about 150 per component set (75 per woofer and tweeter). If I did this, I would use a TI1200.1 for the sub which would be about 750RMS at 12 volts...

The only problem with running the MS amps is I won't have a LPL, but I can use the bass output on the deck to keep the sub in line with certain music... The other option is run the Offroads active to the fronts off one amp, and 75 x 2 to the rears, and bridge the other 75x2 to the sub which will be around 500-600 RMS at 12 volts... This might not be enough power to make the 12W7 hit hard, but it should sound real smooth.

So boys and girls, which would you run and why? Im not 100% certain the shrouded 2250 and 1K will fit back there easily yet, but I think it'd look and sound amazing... I know Brian votes for the OffRoads, which I bought to use, just might put them in my race car in the back seat (since it is truly an "off-road" use vehicle) and those amps almost match the car color!

Ti's Hands Down... guess you'll have to sell off the MS gear !
sorry that doesnt help your question, but just wanted to fool with ya...
Unfortunately, I can not speak intelligently on the matter as I have not ever had a full fledged Ti system... Just processors and 2-channels for sub's, liked tham.. but prefer MS gear for looks!


RUN the MS and grab BaseCube...
matt

mhyde71 wrote:Ti's Hands Down... guess you'll have to sell off the MS gear !
sorry that doesnt help your question, but just wanted to fool with ya...
Unfortunately, I can not speak intelligently on the matter as I have not ever had a full fledged Ti system... Just processors and 2-channels for sub's, liked tham.. but prefer MS gear for looks!


RUN the MS and grab BaseCube...
matt

I have a TI cubeage in Dallas, I could pick it up at Christmas... It'd obviously match my TI gear better... damnit.

bass cube is no substitute for LPL. just another tool at your disposal.

My advice; sell all your MS stuff, period.
[and provide your PP number]
Neh.... I never heard an amp that I liked more than my MS1K.
[And that's NO joke]

If you're talking watt per watt, class per class with the exact same quality of installation in the same vehicle, I think you're going to have a somewhat difficult time specifically picking apart the differences in SQ.

Mind you, I've never heard an MS amp , just M and Ti. However, since I've never done good A/B testing with M and Ti amps, I simply can't provide any basis for judgement.

I'd lean towards the MS because they are legendary and the PG guys that worked on them, still swear by them (Larry Frederick, maybe others?).

Watt for watt, I can't tell the difference between any of the triple darlington PG amps in A/B testing.

12V ratings are 'cheater' and are purposely aimed well below what the amp will actually produce at that level. Any PG amp I have tested produced its 13.8v at 12v without clipping, and at 14.4v usually puts out MUCH more power than rated.

The Ti1200.1 is actually really good in higher impedances. Mine was benched at 1450 at 2 ohms, but output at 4 ohms was well above the previous 800 watt amp. I wouldn't be surprised if you would get 1000 or more watts at 3 ohms. It should be indiscernible compared to your 2250, and it will be running at a much happier load.

Offroads powering your components actively should be just as loud, despite the lower wattage. Active components, especially with the great Ti crossovers will give you a lot of flexibility in your sound. Of course how much flexibility you need depends on your headunit and processing. Alternatively, bridge them and run 600 watts per component set

So I guess pick whatever you like best. Either setup is going to be damn good.

this might be slightly off topic, but I have run 2 TI400.2s on 2 TI6 Elite component sets for a long time at 100w X 4. I recently went to the Xenon 200.4 and now pushing 200w x 4 to the 2 TI6 Elites and they sound a lot cleaner at the lower voltages. Of course the x200 is much louder at higher voltages because of the power, but I feel like the xenon sound better than the TI.

Never heard the M though.

stipud wrote: The Ti1200.1 is actually really good in higher impedances. Mine was benched at 1450 at 2 ohms, but output at 4 ohms was well above the previous 800 watt amp. I wouldn't be surprised if you would get 1000 or more watts at 3 ohms. It should be indiscernible compared to your 2250, and it will be running at a much happier load.

Offroads powering your components actively should be just as loud, despite the lower wattage. Active components, especially with the great Ti crossovers will give you a lot of flexibility in your sound. Of course how much flexibility you need depends on your headunit and processing. Alternatively, bridge them and run 600 watts per component set

Will the 2250 not want to run at 3 ohm mono, even with the fan shroud? If not, I won't bother putting it in, as I don't want to burn it up.

As for the great TI crossovers, I won't be using them. I am using the processing power of my Alpine unit. Its a dolby digital surround sound processor yada yada... it has 4 front inputs and two rears. The rears I can either bi-amp, or run the crossovers actively. I don't think it will really matter in the back, and if I want surround sound, will probably start with them bi-amped off the passives in back to make the tuning easy to start with. in the front I'll have full active control through the processor for the tweets and woofers seperate. The unit also has a 31 band EQ for front and back, or left and right built in, so I should be ok with enough adjustability. If this doesnt sound good, I'll yank it out; and go with one of my Z1s running to either my TiDEQ or EQ230/AX406 tried and true setup I've run for 13+ years... Having a lot of gear is great and all, but its like going to a good restaruant, and not know what you want to eat... too many choices, and I only want to install in this car ONE time... the other stuff will go in a different car or two different cars...

maka78 wrote:this might be slightly off topic, but I have run 2 TI400.2s on 2 TI6 Elite component sets for a long time at 100w X 4. I recently went to the Xenon 200.4 and now pushing 200w x 4 to the 2 TI6 Elites and they sound a lot cleaner at the lower voltages. Of course the x200 is much louder at higher voltages because of the power, but I feel like the xenon sound better than the TI.

Never heard the M though.

what about at low volumes? does the Xenon still sound better than the TIs? have to remember you are talking twice the power... at lower volumes when power isn't a problem, the TIs should sound nearly identical to the Xenon right?

I prefer the sound of the xenon at lower volumes over the TI. I took off my subwoofers and have been listening to just the internals and really love the xenon amp. I'm only doing the comparison at lower volumes to be fair.

The xenon have a "sweeter" sound, but you can hear all the details on the TI amps - I'm not sure if you can hear these minor details on the xenon amps. I still have to listen to the xenon some more to see. For now, I really love the xenon, and am not as worried about hearing the very small details I might miss (possibly miss, not sure yet).

In conclusion, from what I've heard so far... I like the xenon for sounding really sweet to the ears and for having the high power. Still evaluating though.

Did you have your Xenon and Ti gain matched to the same voltage? Otherwise your "lower volume" Xenons are putting out more power than the Ti amp at the same position on the volume knob. Generally, most people think stereos sound better when they have more power. My best sounding component setup had 300w on them from a Ti900.7, but when it was gain matched against my 500.4 there was no audible difference.

STROKD wrote:Will the 2250 not want to run at 3 ohm mono, even with the fan shroud? If not, I won't bother putting it in, as I don't want to burn it up.

As for the great TI crossovers, I won't be using them. I am using the processing power of my Alpine unit. Its a dolby digital surround sound processor yada yada... it has 4 front inputs and two rears. The rears I can either bi-amp, or run the crossovers actively. I don't think it will really matter in the back, and if I want surround sound, will probably start with them bi-amped off the passives in back to make the tuning easy to start with. in the front I'll have full active control through the processor for the tweets and woofers seperate. The unit also has a 31 band EQ for front and back, or left and right built in, so I should be ok with enough adjustability. If this doesnt sound good, I'll yank it out; and go with one of my Z1s running to either my TiDEQ or EQ230/AX406 tried and true setup I've run for 13+ years... Having a lot of gear is great and all, but its like going to a good restaruant, and not know what you want to eat... too many choices, and I only want to install in this car ONE time... the other stuff will go in a different car or two different cars...

3 ohms is borderline for that amp. It should run fine, but it will get hot.

Considering your processing power, it won't really matter what amps you put in. I guess the choice is more... do you want to run active or passive?

stipud wrote:

STROKD wrote:Will the 2250 not want to run at 3 ohm mono, even with the fan shroud? If not, I won't bother putting it in, as I don't want to burn it up.

As for the great TI crossovers, I won't be using them. I am using the processing power of my Alpine unit. Its a dolby digital surround sound processor yada yada... it has 4 front inputs and two rears. The rears I can either bi-amp, or run the crossovers actively. I don't think it will really matter in the back, and if I want surround sound, will probably start with them bi-amped off the passives in back to make the tuning easy to start with. in the front I'll have full active control through the processor for the tweets and woofers seperate. The unit also has a 31 band EQ for front and back, or left and right built in, so I should be ok with enough adjustability. If this doesnt sound good, I'll yank it out; and go with one of my Z1s running to either my TiDEQ or EQ230/AX406 tried and true setup I've run for 13+ years... Having a lot of gear is great and all, but its like going to a good restaruant, and not know what you want to eat... too many choices, and I only want to install in this car ONE time... the other stuff will go in a different car or two different cars...

3 ohms is borderline for that amp. It should run fine, but it will get hot.

Considering your processing power, it won't really matter what amps you put in. I guess the choice is more... do you want to run active or passive?

what do you recommend for him if he runs with the MS, passive or active or did I miss somethign ?? curious to know as I run MS for everything and the sub, is sub out's, but the fronts/rears are active/passive... which we have this discussion before, but should I go with something else?? or what woudl be the recomendation if he runs with the MS gear?? pls thx

mhyde71 wrote:

stipud wrote:

STROKD wrote:Will the 2250 not want to run at 3 ohm mono, even with the fan shroud? If not, I won't bother putting it in, as I don't want to burn it up.

As for the great TI crossovers, I won't be using them. I am using the processing power of my Alpine unit. Its a dolby digital surround sound processor yada yada... it has 4 front inputs and two rears. The rears I can either bi-amp, or run the crossovers actively. I don't think it will really matter in the back, and if I want surround sound, will probably start with them bi-amped off the passives in back to make the tuning easy to start with. in the front I'll have full active control through the processor for the tweets and woofers seperate. The unit also has a 31 band EQ for front and back, or left and right built in, so I should be ok with enough adjustability. If this doesnt sound good, I'll yank it out; and go with one of my Z1s running to either my TiDEQ or EQ230/AX406 tried and true setup I've run for 13+ years... Having a lot of gear is great and all, but its like going to a good restaruant, and not know what you want to eat... too many choices, and I only want to install in this car ONE time... the other stuff will go in a different car or two different cars...

3 ohms is borderline for that amp. It should run fine, but it will get hot.

Considering your processing power, it won't really matter what amps you put in. I guess the choice is more... do you want to run active or passive?

what do you recommend for him if he runs with the MS, passive or active or did I miss somethign ?? curious to know as I run MS for everything and the sub, is sub out's, but the fronts/rears are active/passive... which we have this discussion before, but should I go with something else?? or what woudl be the recomendation if he runs with the MS gear?? pls thx

Matt, the amps I was to use are 250 x 6... which would be bridged to 250x4 and 1000x1. The TI setup would be 150 x 8 and 1000 x 1... The 8 channels would allow me to run active, vs the 4 channels of the Ms would just run through the passives. Granted, I have Utopias and VERY nice passives, but I think I could tweak it just right with active setup (even though I've NEVER had to do active in the past for great sound)... Like Tom said, active or passive, that is the choice in amps... Either setup will look nice, and either will sound good. Right now I am leaning towards the MS1K and 2250. Its half the wiring, half the RCAs, and I wont deal with tuning it as it'd have to be passive.

I didn't get a response back here... If I wanted to use ONLY the OffRoads, one amp to the fronts active, and one split to the rears 150x2 passive, and the other 150x2 section bridged to the 12W7, would this sound good? What power would the TI put out at 3 ohm mono? would it over heat? This would absolutely look the best, as it'd be only two matching amps with my powercore in the middle... Not stuff all over the trunk that doesnt match, I'm just worried that 600 watt amp wont push a W7

My dad has a ZPA 0.5 on a 12W7 and it sounds great... how does a ZX600TI compare to a ZPA 0.5?

STROKD wrote: My dad has a ZPA 0.5 on a 12W7 and it sounds great... how does a ZX600TI compare to a ZPA 0.5?

Shit, I wish I had a dad that knew what a zpa 0.5 was... Or what Phoenix Gold was for that matter.. If I brought up Phoenix Gold to/with him... He'd come back with..."you haven't gotten off that shit, eh Matt, and it comes from Arizona now, eh???"
Where do you guys get folks like this??? they just dont make'em like they used too, eh?!?!

My dad is the one who turned me into phoenix gold. sorry to hi jack this thread... haha

3 ohms you'll get 700-800 out of that amp. Also, 700 watts versus 1400 watts is about a 3dB difference. That would be more than enough for me, but I guess it depends how you like your bass. Of course you can always use a ported box to make up for the power as well.

IDK if you saw this, but I just came around it... http://phoenixphorum.com/head-to-head-m ... t2291.html

YOUR SOOOOO LUCKY to have this issue, obviously im kidding, i mean i still luv the old zx series, and even to this day, still have never had a ms series amp, i try different amps, configurations out , till it seems to achieve what i like, i think, thats the route to go, in my audi i run ti 500.4 to ti 6.5s, then a ti 600.2 to my ti tweets, then i use a rsd 1200.1 for my 2 rsdc 10s, even if i throw a ti1200.1 into the mix, it just draws too much current , then the rsd, but thats what works for me,- in my old work truck i used zx, ti, and rsd, kept with the rsd in that truck b/c it sounded good! hope u ve gotten rest from the 40 hour trip

maka78 wrote:IDK if you saw this, but I just came around it... http://phoenixphorum.com/head-to-head-m ... t2291.html

Yea that is M vs TI and he likes the M better... no offense to the followers on here, but the MS is a "little" better than the M series. It was built to be the best amp they made back then, and hte M was supposed to be the entry level stuff... The M just sounds 10 times better than most entry level amps, so it wasn't really thought of that way, but to the MS owner back then, that was a Camaro (M series) to a Corvette (MS/MPS)...

I still think the MS has a lower THD (My MS amps all spec in the .003-.007 range), but I like the look of the TI better.

STROKD wrote:

maka78 wrote: http://phoenixphorum.com/head-to-head-m ... t2291.html

Yea that is M vs TI and he likes the M better... no offense to the followers on here, but the MS is a "little" better than the M series. It was built to be the best amp they made back then, and the M was supposed to be the entry level stuff...

I don't believe that is a true statement........ The Saphire line was entry level.....The M series was a mid line that preformed(and cost ) like a top of the amp. I've always loved the M amps....

use the ti stuff
and sell me your frank!!!lol
just kidding
you will not hear .00? more or less thd

STROKD wrote:

maka78 wrote:IDK if you saw this, but I just came around it... http://phoenixphorum.com/head-to-head-m ... t2291.html

Yea that is M vs TI and he likes the M better... no offense to the followers on here, but the MS is a "little" better than the M series. It was built to be the best amp they made back then, and hte M was supposed to be the entry level stuff... The M just sounds 10 times better than most entry level amps, so it wasn't really thought of that way, but to the MS owner back then, that was a Camaro (M series) to a Corvette (MS/MPS)...

I still think the MS has a lower THD (My MS amps all spec in the .003-.007 range), but I like the look of the TI better.

The M and MS have basically identical audio circuitry. The MS power supply outclasses the M significantly though.