M series 'tri-linear' mode and impedance question

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:32 pm

Hello all,

This is my first post but I've been lurking for a while, sucking up as much knowledge as possible. I'm planning an old school set up and have the following components:

M50 and an M25
EQ-230
PLD-1 line driver

MB Quart 6.5" component set (QM 160TX woofer and QM19HX tweeter)
Boston Acoustics 12.5LF subwoofer (4 ohm model)

I have a question regarding driving the M50 in tri-linear mode, stereo and bridged mono simultaneously. I quote from the manual:

"Remember that this amplifier likes to be driven hard. Whenever possible, always choose the tri-linear mode. Passive crossover networks must be used to protect drivers ..."

With this in mind, should I just run all five drivers from the M50? I'm assuming it will make decent power set up like this. Will there be any impedance issues? Or would it be advisable to get the M25 in there somewhere?

I'd really appreciate hearing from those with more knowledge and practical experience than I have.
Thanks in advance.

GX3 · Post by **GX3** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:51 pm

Your going to have to get one or two more things to make this work. I would not run the M50 in tri mode. Use the 50 for the sub and the M25 for your Quarts.

Signal flow : Source unit run to your pld1 then off to your Eq230. From here your going to need a 2way xover (3way would be better so you can add a 3rd amp later so you can amp you mids and tweets separately) OR a rca y-splitter ( this will send signal to M50 & M25). Run the sub off the M50 ( if you do not use a active xover you WILL need an inductor coil or F Mods in order to send a low pass signal to the sub)

Now for the component set from the 2 or 3way xover ( if you go that route) to the M25 you will need the passive xover that came with the set (hope you have it). If you dont get the active xover the M25 set up will be the same ether way.

GX3 · Post by **GX3** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:56 pm

FMOD

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=266-254

Inductor type lowpass crossover

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=266-100

I would highly recommend doing an active xover in place of the above options. It will cost more but you have so much more flexibility with an active and in the long run you will be a lot happier

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:47 pm

Thanks GX3, this is exactly the sort of info I was after. I do have the passive crossovers for the Quarts, but may try and stretch the budget some more and go active.

Just as an aside, why did PG recommend running in tri mode in the manual?

GX3 · Post by **GX3** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:03 pm

Keep in mind that the M series amps are around 15 years old. Active crossover were a premium and system were not a large. So alot of people used the tir-amp option. Your going to pay around $30 -50 for the passive components ( fmods or inductor and y cables) to do a low pass xover. You can pick up a decent 2 way maybe even a 3way for under a $100. Just ask around on here and see what comes up. There is an audio control up on the bay for $70 (bin price). that would be my 1st choice after PG.

Its used but it would be a good addition to your system

http://cgi.ebay.com/Audio-Control-3XS_W ... dZViewItem

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 10:28 pm

Thanks GX3! I might try and find a nice AX-204A to keep with the PG theme, even though I do like the AudioControl stuff.

brenzbmr@sb · Post by **brenzbmr@sb** » Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:45 pm

if u wanna know what to run tri mode at safely it would be

2 ohms stereo and 4 ohms bridged at teh same time...

done it on an ms275

Post by **stipud** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:43 am

PG makes the XVR passive crossovers. They are intended to run a full system off of a 2ch amp. There are a few different models, for different setups. I believe the fanciest one has 5 channels plus a sub. You can usually find these XVRs for $20-50 at most, which is cheaper than buying a lowpass passive from partsexpress. So if you want to try an oldschool passive setup, this is the way I would go. Just find the XVR model that matches your intended setup, and go with that. Unfortunately I can't find a list of the models right now... but I will keep looking for you.

Alternatively, you can run with multiple amps. Trilinear is VERY VERY rare these days now that amplification has become much more affordable. I would personally use the M50 on your components and the M25 on the subwoofer. If your deck has crossovers, that should be sufficient to get a system going. Otherwise you will need an external one as GX3 stated.

GX3 · Post by **GX3** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:11 am

stipud wrote: If your deck has crossovers, that should be sufficient to get a system going. Otherwise you will need an external one as GX3 stated.

If he were to use the head unit xover he would not be able to use the EQ230. I have two xvr nib (would not recommend using) you will lose some power going through them not much but some.

PG made four XRVs

XVR2: 2ch with a 2ohm sub out

XVR4: 2Ch with 4ohm sub out

XVR12: 4ch with 2ohm sub out (front left & right with a mono rear and center channel)

XVR14 : 4ch with 4ohm sub out (front left & right with a mono rear and center channel)

All rated 500 watts max 250 rms

Here is a listing that just expired if you want one he had 4 left out of 10 i bought 2 from this seller just to have in my collection.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0267319149

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am

GX3 wrote:I have two xvr nib (would not recommend using) you will lose some power going through them not much but some.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't ALL passive crossovers rob power?

Post by **stipud** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:24 am

GX3 wrote:If he were to use the head unit xover he would not be able to use the EQ230.

EQing the bass channels is pretty much futile. It's most important to have on your front stage.

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:26 am

GX3 wrote:
stipud wrote: If your deck has crossovers, that should be sufficient to get a system going. Otherwise you will need an external one as GX3 stated.

If he were to use the head unit xover he would not be able to use the EQ230. I have two xvr nib (would not recommend using) you will lose some power going through them not much but some.

PG made four XRVs

XVR2: 2ch with a 2ohm sub out

XVR4: 2Ch with 4ohm sub out

XVR12: 4ch with 2ohm sub out (front left & right with a mono rear and center channel)

XVR14 : 4ch with 4ohm sub out (front left & right with a mono rear and center channel)

All rated 500 watts max 250 rms

Here is a listing that just expired if you want one he had 4 left out of 10 i bought 2 from this seller just to have in my collection.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0267319149

Ive got an XVR2 but no manual, having a tough time finding one for that model,chime in if you know of or have one. thanx

GX3 · Post by **GX3** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 10:05 am

I have two

i can scan it and post it for you tonight i just have to hook up the scanner

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:35 pm

Jesus, this is all getting really confusing now. I need to do some homework on this so I can understand fully what you guys are saying

I was actually thinking of running the sub from the M25, even though most would opt for the more powerful amp, so thank you stipud for verifying that this isn't a ridiculous idea.

Much to many people's horror, I'll be running the stock HU (in a Saab). Mainly because it works with the Saab SID (system info display). But it controls a Clarion CD changer which doesn't sound half bad.

Thanks all for your input, it's much appreciated. I still have plenty to learn!

Post by **fuzzysnuggleduck** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:50 pm

Stipud runs the stock HU in his 1999 9-5.

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:39 pm

fuzzysnuggleduck wrote:Stipud runs the stock HU in his 1999 9-5.

I can definitely understand why.

Post by **stipud** » Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:34 am

It has balanced signal outputs! That's better than most aftermarket headunits out there.

Here's my install thread:
http://phoenixphorum.com/stipud-s-saab-9-5-vt316.html

What model have you got?

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:36 pm

I have a 1996 900s convertible.

Just back on the active crossover topic ... if I were to go this route, am I going to run into an extremely complex tuning situation running the EQ-230 PLUS active crossovers that no doubt have variable crossover frequencies? Sounds like there's huge potential for me to get in WAY over my head

GX3 · Post by **GX3** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:47 pm

Not at all you just have to set the xover Fs for the sub and mids your passive crossover takes care of the rest. there is not much tuning for the sub portion as stupid said its all in the front stage and that will be the same amount of tuning with or with out an active crossover. It all depends on your ear. You are going to set it to what your ear likes. Unless your going to set it up with a RTA and trying for a flat response. that can take a while and a lot of sound damping. being in a convertible is going to make things interesting for your bass response.

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:41 pm

Cool.
Fortunately I don't do much top down driving

GX3 · Post by **GX3** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:32 pm

oldskoolmseriesfan wrote:
GX3 wrote:
stipud wrote: If your deck has crossovers, that should be sufficient to get a system going. Otherwise you will need an external one as GX3 stated.

If he were to use the head unit xover he would not be able to use the EQ230. I have two xvr nib (would not recommend using) you will lose some power going through them not much but some.

PG made four XRVs

XVR2: 2ch with a 2ohm sub out

XVR4: 2Ch with 4ohm sub out

XVR12: 4ch with 2ohm sub out (front left & right with a mono rear and center channel)

XVR14 : 4ch with 4ohm sub out (front left & right with a mono rear and center channel)

All rated 500 watts max 250 rms

Here is a listing that just expired if you want one he had 4 left out of 10 i bought 2 from this seller just to have in my collection.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 0267319149
Ive got an XVR2 but no manual, having a tough time finding one for that model,chime in if you know of or have one. thanx

Sorry it took so long to get this up .. i had a water pipe freeze and to to run new lines to the kitchen

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Post by **stipud** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:39 pm

lowpoke wrote:I have a 1996 900s convertible.

Just back on the active crossover topic ... if I were to go this route, am I going to run into an extremely complex tuning situation running the EQ-230 PLUS active crossovers that no doubt have variable crossover frequencies? Sounds like there's huge potential for me to get in WAY over my head

Very nice. And with Viggen rims no less! Any tuning? I'm running Nordic Stg. 3 on mine

Crossovers aren't rocket surgery. If you get in over your head, that's what we're here for

The AX crossovers are notoriously complicated though, since you need to make chips to change the crossover frequencies. The MX crossovers were much nicer, since you could adjust the frequencies with a knob instead. Alternatively, I would recommend AudioControl... they make great processors.

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:14 pm

GX3 wrote:I have two i can scan it and post it for you tonight i just have to hook up the scanner

thanx GX3 thats mighty white of ya

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:34 pm

The AX crossovers are notoriously complicated though, since you need to make chips to change the crossover frequencies. The MX crossovers were much nicer, since you could adjust the frequencies with a knob instead. Alternatively, I would recommend AudioControl... they make great processors.

I've been doing some reading up in the last couple of days and found an interesting thread on the talkaudioforum.co.uk on resistor modules for the AX406a, which was all sounding rather complex. I think AudioControl may be the go for me.

(BTW I notice there's a PG XVR12 passive crossover on ebay now.)

lowpoke · Post by **lowpoke** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:40 pm

Sorry stipud, forgot to answer your question — no tuning.
(I'm trying not to spend money on anything but the audio until I actually get that installed.)