Phoenix Gold Phorum

Cross-posting this to phoenixphorum, diyma, and imagedynamicsusa to maximise potential input.

So, I just opened up my Octane LE for a little cleaning and noticed that the PCBs say "ZEROpoint Power Amplifier". This led me to take a look at the ZX400ti manual (being that these are the amps used in the Octane LE if my memory serves), and I see that the ZX series is referred to as being "ZEROpoint". So, my question is, what are the similarities between the ZX and ZPA series amps? The chassis designs seem obviously similar, both using convection-based cooling. Are there any other similarities, other than the obvious stuff like Triple Darlington topology and such? I've heard a ton of great stuff about the ZPA amps, but not much about the ZX series. Are these amps in the same league as the MS, M and ZPA series'?

I'm trying to decide on which amps to use for my system. My two primary options right now are:

Option 1 - Octane
This is my "small" option.
2 x 200W @ 2 Ohms (Image Dynamics 2 x HLCD [105-110db] and 4 x 6.5" [90db] w/ passive x-over)
1 x 400+W @ 2 Ohms bridged (Acoustic Elegance 2 x IB15 [91db]) (I've seen no estimates of this amp's output at this load)

Option 2 - MS-275 & 2 x MS-2125
This is the big, fully active x-over option.
2 x 50W @ 8 Ohms (Image Dynamics 2 x HLCD [105-110db])
2 x 255W @ 2 Ohms (Image Dynamics 4 x 6.5" [90db])
1 x 700+W @ 2 Ohms Bridged (Acoustic Elegance 2 x IB15 [91db])

The install is for a 1987 Buick Grand National. Obviously option 2 is going to be louder. Option 2 is also more "Old School", which kinda fits in, given the vehicle. Option 1 is smaller and lighter, not to mention cheaper. Out of the stuff listed, I currently own the Octane LE, 1 x MS-2125, 4 x 6.5" and 2 x 15"). Money, while a factor in this install, is not enough of a factor to influence this particular decision. And if it were, I could probably sell/trade the Octane and be able to get the MS-275 and MS-2125 easily. So, it comes down to coolness and performance being the deciding factors. On one hand, we have a PG limited edition amp, and on the other hand, we have the MS series in all it's glory. Both options seem to do well in coolness.

Performance. how do the two options stack up? The MS option being full active has to be of some benefit. Not sure how much though. It seems ID knows what they are doing, and the passive front stage setup is probably pretty good, but is it close enough to what one would be able to do with a full active setup? For the record, I would be using the ID cs162 HLCD+6.5" component set, but replace the 2 Ohm 6.5" with a pair of 4 ohm 6.5" in parallel. Not to mention the raw power of the MS-275 + 2 x ms-2125 option. But am I really gonna find that much power of any practical use? Tough decisions, which is why I am soliciting input.

Any and all input is appreciated. Thanks.

Grim0013 wrote:Cross-posting this to phoenixphorum, diyma, and imagedynamicsusa to maximise potential input.

It's because you think we're fat, isn't it

Grim0013 wrote:So, I just opened up my Octane LE for a little cleaning and noticed that the PCBs say "ZEROpoint Power Amplifier". This led me to take a look at the ZX400ti manual (being that these are the amps used in the Octane LE if my memory serves), and I see that the ZX series is referred to as being "ZEROpoint". So, my question is, what are the similarities between the ZX and ZPA series amps? The chassis designs seem obviously similar, both using convection-based cooling. Are there any other similarities, other than the obvious stuff like Triple Darlington topology and such? I've heard a ton of great stuff about the ZPA amps, but not much about the ZX series. Are these amps in the same league as the MS, M and ZPA series'?

The Octane amp was made with ZXti amps (equivalent to Ti), not ZX, if I recall correctly. Either way, yes, I would put them in league with any other high end PG amps. M, MS, MPS, ZPA, ZX, ZXti, Ti and Xenon are all phenomenal amps with triple darlington outputs and similar circuit topologies. Even the new RSD series would sound comparable; it's only detractions in my eyes would be the lack of LPL ports on 4 channel amps and 18dB/oct crossovers. In fact, PG claims RSD's topology is the most like the original MS amps, and it's even engineered by the same guy.

I have personally A/Bed many of the high end PG amps side by side, and I cannot tell a difference for the life of me. I am not alone in this belief as well, for example, you can read the end of this review, where an X100.2 is compared against an M25:
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

And some disagree as well:
http://phoenixphorum.com/head-to-head-m ... t2291.html

Don't forget about your Octane's rail capacitance either. That will offer a lot of A/C ripple filtering after the powersupply, which ensures extremely clean input voltage for your amp's output section. Add a 1 farad to the power inputs, and you should have no A/C ripple whatsoever. Personally I think this amp would be wasted on subs, and you should instead use it to actively power your horns and door speakers. Any other Ti amp would perform just fine on bass after that.

Also, the MS amps completely lack crossovers, while the Ti's on the other hand are very robust in this department. A single ZX450/Ti500.4 has enough crossover power to run 3-way active

Grim0013 wrote:I'm trying to decide on which amps to use for my system. My two primary options right now are:

Option 1 - Octane
This is my "small" option.
2 x 200W @ 2 Ohms (Image Dynamics 2 x HLCD [105-110db] and 4 x 6.5" [90db] w/ passive x-over)
1 x 400+W @ 2 Ohms bridged (Acoustic Elegance 2 x IB15 [91db]) (I've seen no estimates of this amp's output at this load)

Have you talked to ID about your plan to use the 2 ohm passive for two 4 ohm mids? Even though the nominal impedance is the same, there will be quite a few electronic and acoustic differences between the two, that might not make it an ideal match. However, the extra 3dB out of the dual mid setup is tempting, especially with those HLCDs, so it's worth checking with ID at the very least.

Of course you can also use the Octane to run active, and add a Ti800.1 or similar for sub duty. Your MS2125 would be just fine as well, unless you're a stickler for matching... (it would personally bug the hell out of me )

Grim0013 wrote:Option 2 - MS-275 & 2 x MS-2125
This is the big, fully active x-over option.
2 x 50W @ 8 Ohms (Image Dynamics 2 x HLCD [105-110db])
2 x 255W @ 2 Ohms (Image Dynamics 4 x 6.5" [90db])
1 x 700+W @ 2 Ohms Bridged (Acoustic Elegance 2 x IB15 [91db])

Nothing wrong with this setup. Matching the vintage of your car would be a definite plus here, however, they will need their capacitors replaced, if that hasn't been done already. They are at a vintage now where not doing so will likely result in the capacitors shorting out, causing circuit damage, or even a small fire. Make sure you budget time and materials to do that as well, since they aren't the easiest amps to take apart (e.g. you will need new sil-pads to stick the transistors back on).

Grim0013 wrote:The install is for a 1987 Buick Grand National. Obviously option 2 is going to be louder. Option 2 is also more "Old School", which kinda fits in, given the vehicle. Option 1 is smaller and lighter, not to mention cheaper. Out of the stuff listed, I currently own the Octane LE, 1 x MS-2125, 4 x 6.5" and 2 x 15"). Money, while a factor in this install, is not enough of a factor to influence this particular decision. And if it were, I could probably sell/trade the Octane and be able to get the MS-275 and MS-2125 easily. So, it comes down to coolness and performance being the deciding factors. On one hand, we have a PG limited edition amp, and on the other hand, we have the MS series in all it's glory. Both options seem to do well in coolness.

Performance. how do the two options stack up? The MS option being full active has to be of some benefit. Not sure how much though. It seems ID knows what they are doing, and the passive front stage setup is probably pretty good, but is it close enough to what one would be able to do with a full active setup? For the record, I would be using the ID cs162 HLCD+6.5" component set, but replace the 2 Ohm 6.5" with a pair of 4 ohm 6.5" in parallel. Not to mention the raw power of the MS-275 + 2 x ms-2125 option. But am I really gonna find that much power of any practical use? Tough decisions, which is why I am soliciting input.

Any and all input is appreciated. Thanks.

In the end, it really comes down to which setup fits your install the best. I don't think you will have a problem with either amplifier, and it will be down to whatever visually or functionally works the best.

Stipud, I agree with what ur saying, however, the ONLY negative feature on his Le Octane, is the ability to truly run active on the rear of that amp as a midbass; i mean, yeah he can send a hp active signal to the le octane + turn the xover point up higher for the rear, but it only has the single rca input-it still is a GREAT AMP- but the rear is still gonna roll of lp b/c u cant bypass its internal xover point( or really make the rear xover hp, or bandpass) and theres no mulitpy x10 button- He can cross it over higher on the lp-but the rear on that amp really gets a lp signal-just my 2cents, hope it helps, or someone can tell me something about the le I dont know????