The Trunk you've been assisting me with.

neverman · Post by **neverman** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:06 am

It's sounding better than it has in years. I still have something going on with my components (6.5/5.25/tweet) as the mid-bass is weak as hell. It's livable ATM though. It's a little beat up, but after 10 years of golf clubs and shopping trips it's held up OK.

In the second photo you can kind of make out the bass ports mimicking the M3 logo through the rear window.

Post by **stipud** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:14 am

That looks great for a 10 year old install!

You should consider eventually replacing the capacitors in your ZPAs, so that they will last you another 15.

neverman · Post by **neverman** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:18 am

As I replaced the fans, I checked them out. No leaking or bulging, no wetness underneath. Should I still be concerned? They seem to be holding up quite well.

Post by **AVICJR** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:40 am

neverman wrote:As I replaced the fans, I checked them out. No leaking or bulging, no wetness underneath. Should I still be concerned? They seem to be holding up quite well.

It's a precautionary measure to take as well. Maybe not today, but those caps will eventually fail. You won't know until after, in which case is probably too late.

Jim Truett · Post by **Jim Truett** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:17 pm

neverman wrote:Should I still be concerned?

The caps are $2 each, and take about 45 minutes per amp to replace.

A 1.5" hole burned through the PCB and the resulting peripheral damage could take days to weeks to repair, if it is within your skill level. It will also never be the same cosmetically.

I have fixed a ton of these. You basically have a ticking timebomb.

dwnrodeo · Post by **dwnrodeo** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:32 pm

If you follow this tutorial cap replacement should be a breeze.

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

I am not a solder pro nor do I know exactly what I'm doing when it comes to work of this nature, but I replaced my M44 caps in about an hour and a half.

neverman · Post by **neverman** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:22 pm

Yeah I was micro-min certified when I was in the Navy. Multi-layer board repair type stuff, nice fillets etc. It's well within my capacity (no pun intended), still a pain.

I'm just not sure why all the worry as they look great and aren't swollen? It's cheap enough but I know electronic components can blow at any time even if brand new... did they spec "crappy" capacitors? Are we talking just the power supply ones or even the medium size ones found strewn about the board?

He mentions a specific cap in his write up... Are all PG amps using the same caps basically?

Damn, and I thought I could just wrap it up and call it a day... youz guyz hatez on meeeeez!

Post by **Bfowler** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:45 pm

good to see another bmw head over here.

is that in a m3 sedan?

loks super nice. what did you do for front stage?

Post by **Wakeup** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:11 pm

neverman wrote:Yeah I was micro-min certified when I was in the Navy. Multi-layer board repair type stuff, nice fillets etc. It's well within my capacity (no pun intended), still a pain.

I'm just not sure why all the worry as they look great and aren't swollen? It's cheap enough but I know electronic components can blow at any time even if brand new... did they spec "crappy" capacitors? Are we talking just the power supply ones or even the medium size ones found strewn about the board?

He mentions a specific cap in his write up... Are all PG amps using the same caps basically?

Damn, and I thought I could just wrap it up and call it a day... youz guyz hatez on meeeeez!

No hatred here....I think that these guys are warning because these amps are morreeee than 15 years old...and most likely since you may have not, or no one may have changed the caps....caps wear out....even if not leaking...Caps blow even when there are no signs...
And hence the warning to change them. But it is your perogative...if you want to do the change or not.
I think that we are all concerned is all. Especially due to the age....I mean look at the link that was provided above on Dr. Fosgate's M100 cap replacement. Doesn't look like it's leaking to me...doesn't look to be blown or buldging caps etc. But after removal you see the fluid etc.

So again it's your amps...if you are satisfied...then so beit. But do realize you may be missing some of your mids (as you say...) due to the caps.

PS. I'm no guru at this stuff myself...but I do know that caps are the essence to amps! My friend had a B52 powered subwoofer, and the bass was just awful. It was an 18" subwoofer. He was "proud" of it...but I LOVEEEE bass...And the low's etc. Well it sounded "ok" it gave some bass...and I just told him...mannnn somethings wrong...so we took it apart...and I said hey I think the caps are going bad....looked like the M100 pictures on the caps...not really able to tell. some dust near the bottom, but paper test didn't show anything either...dry...
So I told him he should change em out. He was defyant saying they look fine...anyway long story short, he finally listened...we orderd from digikey, got them a few days later, and at first he wanted to swap a few out. I said lets friggin do em all...we did...and BOyyyyyyyy huge difference....Let me just say....(he acquired the b52 powered sub for free because the guy didn't like the sound....)
Anyway 100% difference....he turned around and sold it for $1200....

Post by **Jacampb2** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 7:31 pm

If you have electronics experience, you must know that electrolytic caps have a finite life span at their rated temperature. Most are specified for somewhere in the neighborhood of 10,000 hours. Long before that time is reached, the dielectric barrier begins to break down. Quite literally from the time the cap is made. It is not unusual for a cap that is only a few years old to have drifted more than 50% of it's rated value. As the dielectric continues to fail, eventually it will cause the cap to short, or nearly short, quickly causing it to overheat and burst or leak, regardless of if it bulged first. Once the electrolyte, which is conductive, gets on the board, it can and almost certainly will, short the ground and power planes which are happily sitting right under the failed cap, this in turn leads to the 1.5" or so hole mentioned above burned through the board.

It is quite literally only a matter of time, some caps make it longer than their rating, some don't. Large electrolytics like the PS input caps and rail caps will suffer the worst as they are subject to the most extreme cycles.

Nice looking install though! I love the ZPA's!

Later,
Jason

Post by **Wakeup** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 8:39 pm

Just remember, we are all just looking out...would be a sad day to see two more ZPA's burn up in smoke. When maybe a few months earlier or even a year or two earlier it could have been changed/solved.

you might have time on them..but you might not...right now you are into the install and are in and out of it right now...might as well get it done...
Before you become complacent...and leave it in and forget about it...

neverman · Post by **neverman** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:01 pm

Yeah Fowler it's a 95' Cosmos Black M3 Coupe. I ain't roolin in no 4-doors, kids will, and have, make do!

I'm kind of loyal to my BMW's and in general German cars. I've owned a 320i, a 320i turbo, a 323i (grey market E21, man that car was badass) and my present... I'll probably end up buried in it, E36 M3.

Back on topic...

Alrightee then, easy enough to replace. Are we just talkin the big dogs on the power supply? I see 6, lets call them huge (although they're not) caps along the 2 lateral boards and I see two sets of three along the input side that are still decent in size.

Just replace all 12? What part numbers then because the two sets are different. As seen in the pics... are we talking left or right side of the torodials if I'm only worried about one type? I'm assuming left as that should be the input caps regulating the power supply? I didn't look deeply at it I just went out with a flashlight.

History lesson... I remember back to when I used to change out the caps in a PFN (pulse forming network) that was submerged/housed in oil (to prevent arcing)for a search radar system. I'lll never forget the shouts from people who got zapped (even after shorting the damn things out with screwdrivers, numerous times), myself sadly included. Man, those things woke you up and how. Nothing like a little involuntary muscle work to help the coffee go down. Good times for sure. NOW THOSE WERE CAPS!!!!

I know, I rambled a bit but please answer up on the "caps" info... You guys rock! And thanks for caring!!!

Post by **Jacampb2** » Mon Feb 23, 2009 11:20 pm

The power supply input caps tend to suffer the worst, and fail the most often. They are the smaller of the large sets, and closest to the 12V supply. The rail caps are the largest caps, on the other side of the torroids. IMO I would change both the 12V supply caps and the rail caps, but many recommend just the 12V supply caps.

As for part numbers, the ones in the linked article are only for some of the M series amps. The best way to find the proper replacements is to take down the info off the caps can. It normally lists working voltage and temperature rating. Measure the diameter and height and start shopping online. You can normally upgrade the capacitance and get the same sized can, I would swing the extra money for it. You can also use the same working voltage or higher if you can not find exactly what you want in the same WV. Low ESR caps should be sourced if at all possible, if you are down to a handful of manufacturers and trying to decide which to purchase, look for the ones with the lowest ESR values.

Good luck,
Jason

Post by **Bfowler** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 10:43 am

neverman wrote:Yeah Fowler it's a 95' Cosmos Black M3 Coupe. I ain't roolin in no 4-doors, kids will, and have, make do!

I'm kind of loyal to my BMW's and in general German cars. I've owned a 320i, a 320i turbo, a 323i (grey market E21, man that car was badass) and my present... I'll probably end up buried in it, E36 M3.

Back on topic...

back off topic

good stuff, im rocking a 97 328 coupe. so it looks like you are firing your subs forward then? do your folding seats rattle? i have never been able to use a forward firing setup because the latches in my fold down seats rattle like crazy

check out some of my ol install posts...lots of trial and error over here!

also, i have the same username over on bimmerfourms

neverman · Post by **neverman** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:34 am

Second photo almost shows the rear deck "ports" if you look at the rear window. It's two sets of mirror imaged M3 logo's (well artist rendition I suppose). The sub box has a channel it fires into that links the box to the rear deck so I'm not losing energy into the trunk. That make sense? It's hard to describe.

I'm sometimes surprised my rear window is still in place!

My username on bimmerforums is the same as well. Or something very close.

If you'd like a better snap of the deck I can do that. I have to rewrap the damn vinyl in places as it's suffered a little age induced detachment.

denim · Post by **denim** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:23 am

Awesome looking set up.