Phoenix Gold Phorum

I want to wire 2 sets of RSD65c 6.5"components in parrallel/per channel of an Rsd500.4 amp. Is this OK? This will be in the front of my 1998 Trans Am in the doors and some Q-logic kickpalels. the rear channels would be hosting a pair of these Rsd65c 6.5"ers in the rear seat area and a pair of Rsd4 4" coaxials in the hatch area. Should not be a problem right? I just want to get it right. I will also be posing a triple set of Rsd10d DVC subs in a custom embossed t-top box from the guys at Subthump to a 600.1 amp wired in to load at 2.67 ohms. I have the wiring for the subs down. Just need help with all the others. Also any suggestion an a capacitor?

Welcome to the phorum!

As far as impedance goes, the amp will be able to run what you've suggested. But it will be running at it's max capability with 2ohm/chnl.

As far as soundstage goes (the title of your 2nd post), having 2 sets of speakers up front as well as rear speakers, there won't be much of a soundstage. Too many point sources of the same freq range will just smear any resemblance of a 'stage'.

My suggestion would be to do 1 set of speakers up front in the Q-forms and bridge the 500.4 to them and leave out the door speakers and any rear speakers. You'll be well on your way to a good 'soundstage' if that's what you're truly after.

I am not sure I understand. I would like at least two sets of speakers. How do speakers on the sides of the rear seats ruin the "sound"? The subs are in the very rear of the Trans Am. I am sure speakers in the hatch area would hurt the low frequency sound wave coming from the subs. But the rear seat speakers sit at just about chest hieght but below the top of the back seat. the rear speakers should not theoretically cancel any of the sound waves from the subs. Or is there other things invovled?

Most audiophiles do not like rear speakers since you are really just trying to recreate a live performance and when was the last time you went to a concert with speakers behind you? If you like rear fill the by all means use it, to each his own. The idea of just a single pair of speakers in the kicks that he suggested is again an audiophile thing as this makes the distance from the speakers to your ears(on both sides) almost the same. With this being equal the soundstage will sound accurate by recreating the right and left side of the stage. If you add a set of speakers to the doors now that you have the kick panels on, all you will really hear is the drivers door speaker since it is so much closer to you then the other speakers.

Tell us a little more about your music tastes and what you want from the system and we can help you figure out if you are leaning towards audiophile or otherwise....

Do you want the sound to come from in front of you like at a concert? Or do you want to hear the sound from the "rear" aswell? What hes saying is with your Qforms in the kick panels your"musical stage" will come from in front of you as if you were at a concert, with only the RSD's inthe Qforms and the subs hooked up.
When you add speakers in the back "rear fill", the sound will tend to be drawn to the rear and almost behind you in some cases. Ive played around with different setups in my cars and I personally dont like any speakers in the rear deck. Just play around with it for a day and see what you like.
You do have a great start on your soundstage with those Qforms though. Try and deaden those Qforms and they will really shine
im slow at typing, you beat me to the punch tlocs

Yep, with a Trans Am, you definitely want JUST front speakers. Adding speakers in the back just ruins your imaging and staging.

With the rear speakers that close to your ears as well, you will have major time alignment and volume differences between left and right as well. Kickpanels are as far away from you as possible, so they have the most equal path lengths, which means the sound gets to your ear in synch.

stipud wrote:Yep, with a Trans Am, you definitely want JUST front speakers. Adding speakers in the back just ruins your imaging and staging.

With the rear speakers that close to your ears as well, you will have major time alignment and volume differences between left and right as well. Kickpanels are as far away from you as possible, so they have the most equal path lengths, which means the sound gets to your ear in synch.

I am not sure that we are important enough to tell him what he wants to hear, at least I know I am not that important.

Alot of people like rear fill, probably more people do then don't to tell you the trueth. I use rear speakers but they do not play a full range, and not at full volume so that they do not pull the attention away from the front. I don't know that I will win any competitions with it but I like it and thats what matters, do what YOU like.

my friend had a ta and the 6x9 in the side pannel we to loud as he was using the stock dash speakers
Im using rear fill in my wifes car but at about 10% to the rest of the music
we have people in the car in the rear .. and its a 4 door vw golf..
I will be using my rear fill in my 08 bmw as I don't care to mess with the new car more than I have to untill I buy it out and they are 4" mid and tweeters

oldskoolmseriesfan wrote:Try and deaden those Qforms and they will really shine

Mine are ultra dead and sealed up with a RSd6cs set and they sound GGGGGGGGREAT!

ttocs wrote:I am not sure that we are important enough to tell him what he wants to hear, at least I know I am not that important.

Alot of people like rear fill, probably more people do then don't to tell you the trueth. I use rear speakers but they do not play a full range, and not at full volume so that they do not pull the attention away from the front. I don't know that I will win any competitions with it but I like it and thats what matters, do what YOU like.

If nobody told me not to run rear fill, I would still be running it, because I used to think it sounded better as well. At first it sounded weird to me without speakers in the back, but now I hate stereos with rear fill.

That's the point of these forums anyways... giving advice. It's his choice whether or not to listen.

i like having the rear fill in the Pathy SUV... maybe large enough and or whatever, see signature.. I have the chamelions separated up front and co-ax'ed in the rear, and just heavier in the front.. but kinda like mike said frequentaly wife and son sit back there and we all watch seinfeld or moies and tuff... and as far as theatrically speaking it is nice to have... Neat to hear a door close or someone creep up from behind in shows and movies... but perhaps this is a whole different ball game...?... but even musically speaking... I like having the rear fill.... my .02

gkitching wrote:Welcome to the phorum!


My suggestion would be to do 1 set of speakers up front in the Q-forms and bridge the 500.4 to them and leave out the door speakers and any rear speakers. .

Bi-amp them. I'm not sure if that amp will allow for a configuration like that. Active on those.

ttocs wrote:

stipud wrote:Yep, with a Trans Am, you definitely want JUST front speakers. Adding speakers in the back just ruins your imaging and staging.

With the rear speakers that close to your ears as well, you will have major time alignment and volume differences between left and right as well. Kickpanels are as far away from you as possible, so they have the most equal path lengths, which means the sound gets to your ear in synch.

I am not sure that we are important enough to tell him what he wants to hear, at least I know I am not that important.

Alot of people like rear fill, probably more people do then don't to tell you the truth. I use rear speakers but they do not play a full range, and not at full volume so that they do not pull the attention away from the front. I don't know that I will win any competitions with it but I like it and thats what matters, do what YOU like.

He's looking for advise. He asked about a 'soundstage'. We are giving him information so he can learn. I suspect this is why we ask questions. He can do with it what he wants.

But trying to turn this into a 'Who do you think you are' and 'that's just your opinion' thread is not teaching him anything. Opinion has nothing to do with soundstage accuracy.

Judging by the response, PGTransAm may have been using the term 'soundstage' in a general manner and was curious to our responses. A perfect opportunity to teach or learn.

smgreen20 wrote:

gkitching wrote:Welcome to the phorum!


My suggestion would be to do 1 set of speakers up front in the Q-forms and bridge the 500.4 to them and leave out the door speakers and any rear speakers. .

Bi-amp them. I'm not sure if that amp will allow for a configuration like that. Active on those.

Bridging the 4 chnl to 2 channel (mo power!) and set to high-pass would be the easiest configuration. But going active would be an even better suggestion! Good call!

man I wasn't scolding you but he never knew the word soundstage until we told him about it in this post.... It sounded to me as though he just wants a system that is loud as piss until we threw the word soundstage at him. Being a former salesman I like to find out a little about the person before I start to make recomendations as to what might sound good.

Interesting set of comments from all. Soundstage is better understood by me now. I am a (42 yr old) metal-head,mosltly older tunes from the motley crue or dio era. I like alot of newer metal too. Even hardcore stuff, but mostly just good head banging stuff. Having said that I like an absolutely CLEAN and CLEAR sound! Soundstage is interesting because I love the "feel" of the music at a concert (especially guitar and bass) and yes it is in front of you. I did a system in a Bronco about 10 years ago with two twelves in the back, 6x9's in the rear seat panels and 5.25" compys in the fronr doors with some extra tweets in the front sail panels down low. sounded pretty loud and good but not absolutely perfect by any means. Loud as hell though. and I could feel all the bass I wanted with two MTX thunder 7000s. so I will probably want the rear speakers but The front ones should be the most dominate. What about doing the q-form kick panels and some Rsd6.5s in the rear seat with the tweets mounted farther away and the gain turned down a bit? And would it hurt to have the RSD6.5s in the front doors in parrallel with the kick panels just tot up the power to these mid bass jewels?

I myself wouldnt see any big issues with running an extra set of midbass in the doors for midbass reinforcement but... From what I hear these are midbass monsters and you might not need it. I havent had the chance to hear them yet. I would almost suggest trying the kick panels, properly deadened and make sure that isnt all you need. I meen two sets of comps could probably cause hearing damage even with the back set throttled down. But if you want the ability to hurt other people sitting around you in traffic like i do when I listen to metal than maybe try an extra set for just midbass, as It will have the least effect on your soundstage. Part of the whole listening experience is closing your eyes and feeling the band in front of you like they are standing on stage. I myself used to get loud enough on a single comp set with good clean power often enough to feed my craving but not damage anything and more than loud enough to listen while you are trying to drive

You might also try to figure out some time alignment. More speakers= more point sources. The stage dissapears and you find your self in a tunnel with speakers everywhere playing different times. Stupid analogy but you get the idea im sure. Alot of knowledge in this forum, I learn something everyday hanging out hear. Good people that will help you with any questions you might have. Welcome to the family.

ok so I got layed off and nothing better to do but sit around thinking about speakers and I got to wondering. Would two of the same drivers in different enclosures ,if given the same frequencies, create cancellation and mess up the preq response. Would the enclosures need to be the same size. Just wondering, maybe stipud could chime in on this. I would like to know the disadvantages of running two speakers at the same freq in the lower midbass range. just curious.

Cancellation is caused when 2 wave forms, of a given frequency, from multiple point sources, meet at a certain point, that are in complete opposite phase from one anyone. In otherwords, the wave of 1 speaker may be rising and meets the wave of the second speaker that is falling and in essence, cancel each other out.

It is related to frequency and distance. Having two speakers in different enclosures will result in different freq responses from the same type driver but will not cause cancellation. The distance between those drivers will.

You can perform a simple experiment to 'see' how this happens. You'll need 2 bookshelf speakers and an RTA. Place the speakers on a surface facing each other. Place the RTA's mic in between them slightly off-center. Playing pink noise thru your speakers, you will see a dip at some freq. Start moving the mic closer and further away from center. You will see the dip in freq response change as the distance between the speakers and mic changes.

EDIT: Actually it's the difference in distance between the mic and each speaker.

Thank you. I never really understood cancellation.

Wow! Lots of learning here. Very interesting also. I don't mind being a little surrounded by music as long as most of it is in front of me.

And yes I like it loud enough to piss off the old folk at a stop light. Makes me laugh when I get a dirty look and they roll up there windows.

Anyway will two pairs of these up front cuase any of this "cancellation"? I just want it clear and unmuddles, but... loud. I love "feeling the music! Also I haven't read any suggestions on a capacitor yet... how many farad etc.

Thanks guys!

Also wondering about tweeter locations. How do I experiment with these?

98PGTrans Am wrote:Also wondering about tweeter locations. How do I experiment with these?

Use some velcro or tape on the back of the tweets and just try various places in the vehicle and pick the one that best suits your listening tastes. Im going to do the same with my tweets cuz the stock location sux.S orry, ofcourse have them hooked up to power source while doing this

waynehead wrote:Thank you. I never really understood cancellation.

Yes. This is the basis of how noise canceling headphones work. They monitor the ambient noises around the user, process it then reproduce the exact same noises only 'out of phase' with the original. Thereby canceling the sounds and preventing it from reaching your ears.

Also how many of us have hooked up a dual sub box, turned on the system and wonder were all the bass you expected is? Looking at the subs they look like there are jumping out of their baskets but hardly putting anything out. Then when unplugging one of the subs, all of a sudden the one still hooked up starts playing 10 times louder then the 2 together just were. Only to find out that one of the speakers were wired backwards. Thats cancellation because one speaker is pushin while the other is pulling and basically just trading air back and forth.