I'm wanting to set the gains on the 3 Reference 300 amps but am a little stumped. I have the deck running (multi-mode) which is an active 4-way setup. I'm wanting to set the amps but with the crossed over signal coming from each set of RCAs I'm having a hard time. I have the gains all the way down at the moment and things sound ok but I would really like to get things dialed in. I was trying to use the dmm to set the gains but w/ the crossovers active the voltages are all off.
In multi mode I can't disable the crossovers to give a unfiltered signal. I could maybe use my o-scope but I don't know how to use the portable handheld o-scope that I have. And the DRZ is an amazing unit but setting up the crossover points has become a hard task to conquer. here is where I'm at with those: High - 2500hz, Midrange - 250-2500, Midbass - 63hz-500hz, Subwoofer - 63hz. sounds ok but just doesn't sound balanced and "right".
Any help would be appreciated. someone with knowledge of the DRZ would be even more helpful since this deck is like a puzzle with all of the functions.
Oscilloscope is BY FAR the best way. How can you not know how to use it? Play a sine wave that is in the middle of the frequency range being played by the speaker, plug in the scope, fiddle with the dials until you see the waveform. Then turn up the gains until it barely isn't square.
True-RMS multimeter also works, you just use a different frequency to measure, as you would with an oscilloscope. A non-True-RMS multimeter is calibrated to only 60Hz, and will be inaccurate at other frequencies. Since none of your channels will play 60Hz at full volume, you won't be able to use a standard multimeter.
stipud wrote:Oscilloscope is BY FAR the best way. How can you not know how to use it? Play a sine wave that is in the middle of the frequency range being played by the speaker, plug in the scope, fiddle with the dials until you see the waveform. Then turn up the gains until it barely isn't square.
True-RMS multimeter also works, you just use a different frequency to measure, as you would with an oscilloscope. A non-True-RMS multimeter is calibrated to only 60Hz, and will be inaccurate at other frequencies. Since none of your channels will play 60Hz at full volume, you won't be able to use a standard multimeter.
I don't know how to use it because I just don't. I bought the thing used in hopes of trying to figure it out but haven't had the time to play with it. i'm a Commercial/Industrial Electrician... we don't use o-scopes. Now the electronics guys use these things regularly I'm sure.
So use a 60hz test tone? or a 1000hz test tone? I have the test tone discs I just need to know where to start. and the DRZ will not clip at full volume... this has been tested by many people on other phorums with a scope. so should I go close to full volume? The volume goes from -95db - +6db. At 0db the output voltage of the RCAs are 4v... at +6db it's 8v. So I'm thinking that I'll turn it to around +2 or 3 and make my measurements.... this is what I read on another phorum related to this head unit. Now to figure out how to use this damn o-scope.
why do you have the midbass set so much higher than where the mid starts,i would think that would muddy up the midrange. here are my settings and i think they sound great after alot of trial and error-subs 20-45 hz midbass 50-175 mids 200-3200 tweets3500-20k give it a shot.
ttocs wrote:what do you not understand about the scope. Maybe we can help?
i guess i just have never used it. i did get a grid from switching the modes so im going to hook it up and see what i can get. i kinda have an idea now. im going outside now and try the new test tone discs i just made. i will also try switching the xover points to the recommended ones above. brb
do you understand what the grid is? The horozontal lines are the voltage lines, the vertical are the time. YOu can adjust the value that each one of those squares is worth with the X and Y values. So if you set the voltage setting to 1, that means that every line you go up is one volt. If you set the timing to 1ms/div, that means that for every line you go left/right is 1ms. By adjusting these you will be able to make the sign wave big enough that you can see it. Try to make it so that you can see as much of the wave as possible by adjusting the values so that you will hopefully see only one complete wave. When you do this, now all you have to do is adjust the volume on the deck or the gain on theamp until you see the top/bottom of that wave get clipped off.
Maybe we can make this a good learning tool for everyone. IF you get stuck take some pics of what you have and let us know the x and y settings of the scope and we can try to get you through it and teach some others as well.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
ShockTherapy wrote:I don't know how to use it because I just don't. I bought the thing used in hopes of trying to figure it out but haven't had the time to play with it. i'm a Commercial/Industrial Electrician... we don't use o-scopes. Now the electronics guys use these things regularly I'm sure.
So use a 60hz test tone? or a 1000hz test tone? I have the test tone discs I just need to know where to start. and the DRZ will not clip at full volume... this has been tested by many people on other phorums with a scope. so should I go close to full volume? The volume goes from -95db - +6db. At 0db the output voltage of the RCAs are 4v... at +6db it's 8v. So I'm thinking that I'll turn it to around +2 or 3 and make my measurements.... this is what I read on another phorum related to this head unit. Now to figure out how to use this damn o-scope.
What I mean is, they are the easiest thing ever. If you can use a multimeter, you can probably figure out an Oscilloscope pretty quick, even if you have no idea what anything does. Just fiddle with the damn thing!
You are going to need a different test tone for each frequency range. Obviously you want to pick something that is in the middle of the frequency range that is being played in that amp. If the Clarion headunit doesn't clip at full volume, run it at full volume, of course! But you can verify this by using the oscilloscope on the RCA leads as well.
ShockTherapy wrote:I don't know how to use it because I just don't. I bought the thing used in hopes of trying to figure it out but haven't had the time to play with it. i'm a Commercial/Industrial Electrician... we don't use o-scopes. Now the electronics guys use these things regularly I'm sure.
So use a 60hz test tone? or a 1000hz test tone? I have the test tone discs I just need to know where to start. and the DRZ will not clip at full volume... this has been tested by many people on other phorums with a scope. so should I go close to full volume? The volume goes from -95db - +6db. At 0db the output voltage of the RCAs are 4v... at +6db it's 8v. So I'm thinking that I'll turn it to around +2 or 3 and make my measurements.... this is what I read on another phorum related to this head unit. Now to figure out how to use this damn o-scope.
What I mean is, they are the easiest thing ever. If you can use a multimeter, you can probably figure out an Oscilloscope pretty quick, even if you have no idea what anything does. Just fiddle with the damn thing!
You are going to need a different test tone for each frequency range. Obviously you want to pick something that is in the middle of the frequency range that is being played in that amp. If the Clarion headunit doesn't clip at full volume, run it at full volume, of course! But you can verify this by using the oscilloscope on the RCA leads as well.
Put the leads from the oscope on the speaker leads. there was a wave(not square) and the wave would get larger and larger as i turned up the gain. how do i know when it clips? grrr
wave looked like a normal (goingup and down a shallow hill) to be vague. then when i turned up the gain the hil got steeper and steeper. then what?
yo know what a sign wave looks like right? It has a nice smooth curve from begining to end right? When the sgnal gets clipped, it will take the nice smooth tops an bottom of the curve and it will look like they have been cut off with a knife of scissor, it will ge a straight line.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
i think if you set all the gains up to the point where they clip the sound will be way too loud on your tweets and mids,they don't need quite the power as the midbass and subs,when you get the crossover points close things should sound pretty sweet if the acoustic phase is correct, then all you have to set are the levels,with out the rta all you have left are your ears so set it to what sounds good to you,my points are what i finally got set up to sound good with out overlap and no distortion at high volume.
I see what the clipped signal looks like. the rpoblem im having is that as I increase the gain the rounded waveform gets larger and larger til the top rounded portion touches the top of the screen. it doesnt flatten out like the pictures I have viewed.
ShockTherapy wrote:I don't know how to use it because I just don't. I bought the thing used in hopes of trying to figure it out but haven't had the time to play with it. i'm a Commercial/Industrial Electrician... we don't use o-scopes. Now the electronics guys use these things regularly I'm sure.
So use a 60hz test tone? or a 1000hz test tone? I have the test tone discs I just need to know where to start. and the DRZ will not clip at full volume... this has been tested by many people on other phorums with a scope. so should I go close to full volume? The volume goes from -95db - +6db. At 0db the output voltage of the RCAs are 4v... at +6db it's 8v. So I'm thinking that I'll turn it to around +2 or 3 and make my measurements.... this is what I read on another phorum related to this head unit. Now to figure out how to use this damn o-scope.
What I mean is, they are the easiest thing ever. If you can use a multimeter, you can probably figure out an Oscilloscope pretty quick, even if you have no idea what anything does. Just fiddle with the damn thing!
You are going to need a different test tone for each frequency range. Obviously you want to pick something that is in the middle of the frequency range that is being played in that amp. If the Clarion headunit doesn't clip at full volume, run it at full volume, of course! But you can verify this by using the oscilloscope on the RCA leads as well.
Put the leads from the oscope on the speaker leads. there was a wave(not square) and the wave would get larger and larger as i turned up the gain. how do i know when it clips? grrr
wave looked like a normal (goingup and down a shallow hill) to be vague. then when i turned up the gain the hil got steeper and steeper. then what?
It gets steeper and steeper until it starts to square off. So just keep decreasing the sensitivity on the oscilloscope so you can still see the full sin wave. Turn up the gains until the waveform turns square, then turn the gains down until it is round again.
why not try to find out where your amps start to distort or your speakers start to breakup with your unit set flat then tune it just under distortion. after that you can then fine tune your amps to try to match the db for each frequency. but of course you would have to turn the gain down on the louder amp to even out the sound.
What you need to do now is see how you can increase the Voltage per divisions from for example 1v per div to 2v per divisions and that will make the wave form fit inside of the screen. IF you see 100 complete sign waves, then you need to decrease the time/div so that you can only see a couple of wave forms.
So somewhere on that meter, probably in the menu buttons under the screen there will be a part that is marked V/div, see what seetting you are at now, and then increase that value(v/div) and the waveform will still be the same but will now fit in the screen.
Once you do this you are there dude, not far now....
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
What you need to do now is see how you can increase the Voltage per divisions from for example 1v per div to 2v per divisions and that will make the wave form fit inside of the screen. IF you see 100 complete sign waves, then you need to decrease the time/div so that you can only see a couple of wave forms.
So somewhere on that meter, probably in the menu buttons under the screen there will be a part that is marked V/div, see what seetting you are at now, and then increase that value(v/div) and the waveform will still be the same but will now fit in the screen.
Once you do this you are there dude, not far now....
That makes sense... I will go out and try this now. You guys have been a great help and I apologize for the knuckleheadedness... I've just never truly used an o-scope for any real purpose before. I will let you guys know what happens.
glad to help, sorry I dropped it a couple weeks ago. I think you will be suprised at the difference it makes but do not be afraid to make minor adjustments after the scope says it is ok based on what sounds good to you. The scope is a great tool to get it close to what you need but your ears are the final judge of success.
what else can I say I am a grumpy asshole most of the time.
Got it done! To be honest the amps were pretty much on the money with the gains all the way down. The older soundstream Reference 300 amps must be sensitive to the input voltage. they can't take an 8volt input voltage or they clip. I scoped them at 0db (my volume goes from -95 - +6db. at 0db it read 4v out of the RCAs. The The sound is great. The problem I was having before is that somehow my tweeter amp had the gain cranked! I was like wtf? How did that happen? anyhow... turned all of the gains on the three Soundstreams to minumum and the sound seemed to balance out. My goal now is to do some phasing to get things balanced perfectly. I'm also fiddling with the crossover points. What I have so far is (Highs - 2500hz), (Mids - 250-2500), (Midbass - 50hz-250), (Subs - 20hz-50hz). Still going to make more adjustments but things sound decent right now. The phasing is what I want to work on first. I read the article provided to me in the other thread I had going but I'm noticing that phasing isn't so easy. One thing that kicks major as is that I finally put my back seat back in my Silverado! woohoo. Now I can actually have passengars and my shit isn't visible to crooks. Any phasing tricks would be helpful if you have some shortcuts. Thanks again to everyone for the help! And thanks ttocs for picking up where you left off.
No shortcuts for phasing really. My "proven" method is to get really stoned, close my eyes, and listen to SQ discs in my car for hours on end. I listen to one side at a time (finding out how to make the tweet/mid blend best), then just mids (finding out which phase has less cancellation, usually one way will have markedly more midbass) , then just tweeters (properly phased tweets will image really nicely). You would also want to try phasing just between mids and midbass, and so on and so forth. Once I get all of the individual phase blending out of the way I start mixing them together to see how I can get the widest and most realistic soundstage. Finally, only when I am satisfied with the front stage, I try to figure out the subwoofer phase, by seeing what makes it sound the most "forward", i.e. coming from your doors/dash instead of the trunk.
Lots of work for you ahead...
Left and right ONLY midrange/tweet phase (blending)
Left and right ONLY midbass/midrange phase (blending)
Left to right tweeter phasing (imaging and cohesiveness of treble)
Left to right midrange (wide soundstage)
Left to right midbass (more midbass)
Then left vs right phase entirely (wide soundstage, little cancellation)
Then subwoofer phase (forward bass image)
Your crossover slopes sound good for the time being so I would concentrate on phase next. Other than that you will really need an RTA to get the levels perfectly balanced between all the speakers, and then to EQ it properly flat.
