The values which can be changed are for the PWM feedback, and they determine the voltage the amplifier operates at. If I remember correctly, there are two zaniers and one resistor which the SG3525 monitors.
Stock a MS2250TA board has 50V rails. If you take out a transformer and change its winding ratio to that of an original MS2250 and then place that transformer back into the amp the amp will still only have 50V rails. This is because the SB3525 looks at the setup voltage and ramps back the PWM width to compensate. So by putting in the original transformers, you get the same voltage, yet the amp becomes less efficient.
To get the proper voltage (PG spec is 58V, built to PG spec I saw 61V), you need to not only change the transformer, you must also change the zanier values and the resistor. Now, what if you don’t change the transformer, and only change the zanier and resistor values? Well, in this case the amp increases voltage, but not enough to get to PG spec of even 58V, and there is no way it can get to 61V, let alone 63V. Hence the reason I feel what you measured is impossible, and there must be more to the story.
Now, you could increase input voltage, and that will gain you rail voltage. I test amps at 13.8V, which is the voltage of my power supply. This might account for a change from 61V on the rails to 63V, but not a change from 50V to 63V, unless you are testing these amps at 22V or something crazy like that. In this case, I am sure other parts would fail, like 16V power supply capacitors for example.
It is fine that you stand behind your measurements of 63V, but you have to at least acknowledge the information I have presented here and see that is really is impossible for that amp to do 63V, unless it is a special one off amp, not like the TA or even the original, or you somehow did make an error in your measurement.
Keep in mind, I spent hundreds of dollars, and about two months to modify my amplifier. This required extensive research, and I also had extensive help from PG. A few of their engineers kept me on the right track with my findings and helped me make certain my amp was up to original spec or better. You can probably see my frustration if Nico’s amp is indeed 63V, and all the new TA amps with black connectors are 63V as well. This would mean this generation of TA amps would be even more sought after than the original MS1000 or MS2250, and all of the parts I purchased to be able to modify these amplifiers would be pretty much useless to me.
MS1000 arrived today!
I have the black connectors on my MS1000TA, and I guess there are some others in here too with the black ones.Eric D wrote:You can probably see my frustration if Nico’s amp is indeed 63V, and all the new TA amps with black connectors are 63V as well. This would mean this generation of TA amps would be even more sought after than the original MS1000 or MS2250
How can we check if we DO have the items you talk about here? Is there any place we can check that out (ie. read any numbers or anything on some parts??) ?
Selling your Ti9 mids? PM me, please..
I also need a DD10...
I also need a DD10...
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nico boom
- Deus ex MS
- Posts: 2089
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:40 pm
- Location: the land of wooden shoes
I'm sorry that my amp raises this discussion; that's not what I wanted at all.
I am happy with the amp as-is.
It feels like Cecil's good name is at stake here, and that gives me a sad feeling.
I understand your reasons for reacting Eric, and I respect you for beeing an expert on amps, with great know-how on this subject in particular because you dealth with it personally.
So here are two pics of the transformers, resistors beeing green-brown-brown-gold
Hope this will answer your question!
Thanks.
nico
I am happy with the amp as-is.
It feels like Cecil's good name is at stake here, and that gives me a sad feeling.
I understand your reasons for reacting Eric, and I respect you for beeing an expert on amps, with great know-how on this subject in particular because you dealth with it personally.
So here are two pics of the transformers, resistors beeing green-brown-brown-gold
Hope this will answer your question!
Thanks.
nico
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- transformer 2.jpg (120.05 KiB) Viewed 7687 times
Nico, your amp has 510 ohm PWM feedback resistors, which are the exact specification for the MAC500 board, we know as the MS2250TA.
This means your amp has 50V rail voltages and will do about 240W into 4 channel, run at 4 ohms.
Your amp does not have 63V rails, due to the use of 510 ohm feedback resistors, and transformers which are not wound for this high of voltage.
The correct resistors are 1k ohm, and you would also need the transformers with the higher winding ratio, and 4 primaries, instead of two.
In this attached photo I point out the missing leads to the transformer. Your transformers are without a doubt MSTA transformers, not original transformers.
This means your amp has 50V rail voltages and will do about 240W into 4 channel, run at 4 ohms.
Your amp does not have 63V rails, due to the use of 510 ohm feedback resistors, and transformers which are not wound for this high of voltage.
The correct resistors are 1k ohm, and you would also need the transformers with the higher winding ratio, and 4 primaries, instead of two.
In this attached photo I point out the missing leads to the transformer. Your transformers are without a doubt MSTA transformers, not original transformers.
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- transformer_434.jpg (64.78 KiB) Viewed 7673 times
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mr tibbs
- Forum Goatee
- Posts: 3895
- Joined: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:03 pm
- Location: The land of morons, I mean mormons.:(
Doc, I'm not an amp technician or anything close but it seems to me your hell bent on proving Cecil wrong on this (what I would consider) tiny ass matter that doesn't even make sense to me (and probably others). What gives man? I for one could care less what volt rails the amp has, if Nico is happy and it does the job who cares? Why are you trying to bust his balls over this little discrepancy?? I guess I'm missing something here. 
Well, I can see how it looks like I am busting Cecil’s balls here, but that is really not my intent.
If you reread this whole thread you will notice Cecil mentioned he measured 63V, and I said that is not possible. From my perspective I did not make note of this in a harmful or hateful way. I posted it could not be possible, and then I went on to provide a very detailed explanation as to why.
Cecil stood by his measurement of 63V, and in no way mentioned he could possibly have made a mistake.
I guess I just want the facts known, and I want to know what really happened here. If Cecil is correct, it means I have a lot to learn about these amps, and need to take a break from working on them to get a bit more education on things such as this. If Cecil is wrong, it could be for a ton of reasons, and figuring out what those reasons are not only benefits him, it can benefit me as well.
He might have measured from the wrong locations. There are a couple of other places on a MS amp which are not the rails but will get you higher voltage ratings. If this is what Cecil did, it will be a useful lesson to him and I will also learn to avoid the same mistake in the future.
Obviously I put Cecil on the spot when I got involved with this whole thread. But, he is only on the spot if that is the way he feels about this and the way he is taking it. Instead of adding posts like he did above, which contain nothing useful to the thread, he could be working with me to figure out what is going on, even if there is a possibility he is shown to have made a mistake. After all, I think even Cecil is human.
If you reread this whole thread you will notice Cecil mentioned he measured 63V, and I said that is not possible. From my perspective I did not make note of this in a harmful or hateful way. I posted it could not be possible, and then I went on to provide a very detailed explanation as to why.
Cecil stood by his measurement of 63V, and in no way mentioned he could possibly have made a mistake.
I guess I just want the facts known, and I want to know what really happened here. If Cecil is correct, it means I have a lot to learn about these amps, and need to take a break from working on them to get a bit more education on things such as this. If Cecil is wrong, it could be for a ton of reasons, and figuring out what those reasons are not only benefits him, it can benefit me as well.
He might have measured from the wrong locations. There are a couple of other places on a MS amp which are not the rails but will get you higher voltage ratings. If this is what Cecil did, it will be a useful lesson to him and I will also learn to avoid the same mistake in the future.
Obviously I put Cecil on the spot when I got involved with this whole thread. But, he is only on the spot if that is the way he feels about this and the way he is taking it. Instead of adding posts like he did above, which contain nothing useful to the thread, he could be working with me to figure out what is going on, even if there is a possibility he is shown to have made a mistake. After all, I think even Cecil is human.
Your guys are right, I should never have shitted up Nico’s thread.
Congratulations on the purchase of a mint MS1000TA. I too owned one of these amps and really enjoyed it. I still regret selling it to this day.
But, just keep one thing in mind. If you ever want to upgrade this amp to the specs of an original MS1000 along with nearly twice the power, I would be glad to help you through the process or even perform the modifications for you.
Congratulations on the purchase of a mint MS1000TA. I too owned one of these amps and really enjoyed it. I still regret selling it to this day.
But, just keep one thing in mind. If you ever want to upgrade this amp to the specs of an original MS1000 along with nearly twice the power, I would be glad to help you through the process or even perform the modifications for you.
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nico boom
- Deus ex MS
- Posts: 2089
- Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2007 1:40 pm
- Location: the land of wooden shoes
Thanks Eric for your offer.
Although this whole thing was obviously not my intention when posting this thread, it was hhhmm...let's just say "educating".
And so I learned that a MS1000 always stirs things up, one way or another.
Personally I see Cecil and you Eric, as the ones with so much knowledge compared to mine, that I never in my life will be able to tell "what's right or wrong".
You have your vision with all the professional background you both have, and sometimes the outcome just isn't the same....that happens.
This is IMO one of the amazing ability's of mankind; we get better by looking at others, and then try to do it better, or go a totally different route.
So I thank you both for sharing so much knowledge with us here on the forum, and now; let's just end this story with..
......And they lived happily ever after.....
nico
Although this whole thing was obviously not my intention when posting this thread, it was hhhmm...let's just say "educating".
And so I learned that a MS1000 always stirs things up, one way or another.
Personally I see Cecil and you Eric, as the ones with so much knowledge compared to mine, that I never in my life will be able to tell "what's right or wrong".
You have your vision with all the professional background you both have, and sometimes the outcome just isn't the same....that happens.
This is IMO one of the amazing ability's of mankind; we get better by looking at others, and then try to do it better, or go a totally different route.
So I thank you both for sharing so much knowledge with us here on the forum, and now; let's just end this story with..
......And they lived happily ever after.....
nico
Don’t sell yourself short. Everything I learned about car audio or repairing amps I learned in about a two year period.
This does not mean there is nothing left to learn. I still learn something about this stuff every day, but I think I am done with all the “big discoveries”.
So if you wanted to know as much as I do, you could pick it up in only a few years, it is really not all that hard, nor is it complex.
This does not mean there is nothing left to learn. I still learn something about this stuff every day, but I think I am done with all the “big discoveries”.
So if you wanted to know as much as I do, you could pick it up in only a few years, it is really not all that hard, nor is it complex.
One last note on this thread from me.
Cecil emailed me photos of a DMM measuring 63V on this amplifier. This makes it blatantly obvious I was wrong. But, Cecil did one other thing too. He went into detail showing where all of my thinking on this was wrong. Cecil was the bigger guy and I ended up learning a valuable lesson.
So, Cecil, please consider this a formal apology to you, I should never have doubted you.
And with this, I am no longer going to work on modifying MS amps. Cecil’s explanation has shown me I have tons and tons to learn about these things, and really they are pretty far beyond my electronics comprehension at this point. I might continue fixing amps, but even that is questionable, as I don’t want to be fixing something wrong or causing further harm than good.
If anyone wants their MSTA amp modified you would be better off having Cecil do it. He knows way more than I do about these amps.
Cecil emailed me photos of a DMM measuring 63V on this amplifier. This makes it blatantly obvious I was wrong. But, Cecil did one other thing too. He went into detail showing where all of my thinking on this was wrong. Cecil was the bigger guy and I ended up learning a valuable lesson.
So, Cecil, please consider this a formal apology to you, I should never have doubted you.
And with this, I am no longer going to work on modifying MS amps. Cecil’s explanation has shown me I have tons and tons to learn about these things, and really they are pretty far beyond my electronics comprehension at this point. I might continue fixing amps, but even that is questionable, as I don’t want to be fixing something wrong or causing further harm than good.
If anyone wants their MSTA amp modified you would be better off having Cecil do it. He knows way more than I do about these amps.
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Bfowler
- Briaans..... BRIAAAAANNNNNNS
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don't sell your self short either Eric, you still have lots of knowledge and plenty to offer. Cecil has a little leg up considering its his lively hood to know these details. that doesn't mean you should stop modifying them, knowledge is a journey, not a destination.
hell...if i stopped doing something every-time i felt like i didn't understand it in its absolute entirety...i wouldn't be doing a whole lot
hell...if i stopped doing something every-time i felt like i didn't understand it in its absolute entirety...i wouldn't be doing a whole lot
my ex-girlfriend said "its car audio or me"
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
Amen to that. I think your MS knowledge is absolutely impeccable, and I don't think this thread invalidates anything. If anything it shows that PG has really loose standards, or this was some sort of freak of nature amp.
I know I would prefer to have an MS modified to be capable of 63v, than one that did it randomly
Either way, Nico is one lucky guy
I know I would prefer to have an MS modified to be capable of 63v, than one that did it randomly
Either way, Nico is one lucky guy
Well, I don’t think you guys are seeing this right. If I don’t know what I am doing fully, this could be very dangerous.
I pride myself in being about to fix amps with holes burned through them. But, I don’t want to be the guy modifying amps wrong and causing the holes to be burned though them!
This just proves how limited my knowledge really is, and I won’t be confident working on any more amps until I do some more research on the ones I already have.
I pride myself in being about to fix amps with holes burned through them. But, I don’t want to be the guy modifying amps wrong and causing the holes to be burned though them!
This just proves how limited my knowledge really is, and I won’t be confident working on any more amps until I do some more research on the ones I already have.
Your modifications were done completely in line with PG's original MS2250 specs, so I don't see how this one freak amp invalidates your work whatsoever. It might only put out 63v unloaded... who knows what it does at full swing; perhaps the voltage sags down to normal levels, and this is some weird mod that PG did in late revision MS1000's.
No, this just verifies I don’t know enough.stipud wrote:Your modifications were done completely in line with PG's original MS2250 specs, so I don't see how this one freak amp invalidates your work whatsoever. It might only put out 63v unloaded... who knows what it does at full swing; perhaps the voltage sags down to normal levels, and this is some weird mod that PG did in late revision MS1000's.
There are no “mysteries”, or “freak occurrences” with things like this. Amplifiers are defined by mathematics, and what I thought was true was not, Cecil proved this.
Until I have a more solid grasp as to what is going on with these things (if ever), it is not wise for me to work on them.
I could go into great depth showing and justifying why I went wrong and where I did. But I would probably make yet another small mistake which snowballs like it did here.
The bottom line is at this point I do not know enough about these amps. I may know more than the average person, but really I only know enough to be dangerous.
Hmmm...
I do not want to join this discussion, but I do only want to come with a statement.
I have been member of his forum since last summer, and there is only one thing to say:
Thank you, all you guys. In here I have made many good friends and connections. I have been helped out by many, questions have been asked and answered - and you have all been there for helping me remind my youth and Phoenix Gold.
I appreciate this more than most of you guys could ever imagine.
Two of the guys here, with technical knownledge and love for the old PG beyond this world are Eric and Cecil. They have been there for us others and this forum, and I must say that it is sad that this thread went all the way till this point.
I ask you two gentlemen, from all my (and the others I guess) heart:
Please leave this behind, and start up again as the two genius's as we know you - with no hidden thoughts.
I do not see why you guys should go towards eachother. You two are the "top of the line", simple as that. You two will always be respected by me, and no-one will ever pass you guys either.
Best wishes to you my friends, from Norway.
I do not want to join this discussion, but I do only want to come with a statement.
I have been member of his forum since last summer, and there is only one thing to say:
Thank you, all you guys. In here I have made many good friends and connections. I have been helped out by many, questions have been asked and answered - and you have all been there for helping me remind my youth and Phoenix Gold.
I appreciate this more than most of you guys could ever imagine.
Two of the guys here, with technical knownledge and love for the old PG beyond this world are Eric and Cecil. They have been there for us others and this forum, and I must say that it is sad that this thread went all the way till this point.
I ask you two gentlemen, from all my (and the others I guess) heart:
Please leave this behind, and start up again as the two genius's as we know you - with no hidden thoughts.
I do not see why you guys should go towards eachother. You two are the "top of the line", simple as that. You two will always be respected by me, and no-one will ever pass you guys either.
Best wishes to you my friends, from Norway.
Selling your Ti9 mids? PM me, please..
I also need a DD10...
I also need a DD10...