Has anyone had madisound custom build you crossovers?

[Eric D]

Shawn,

Run your test with speakers on that crossover instead of resistors.

I just did the test as you set it up and found a 10% loss in voltage when using resistors. When I switched over to speakers on my crossover, the voltage fell by only 2%. So, using resistors is not a valid way to do this apparently.

But this makes sense, as the crossover takes into account the impedance of the speaker, not a fixed resistance. Impedance tends to be much higher than nominal resistance.

As for ohms law, how would it work in your case when you don't know the impedance of your load resistor? It may measure only 4 ohms with a DMM, but put some frequency on it, and it will change. I own the same load resistor as you do (at least they look the same), maybe I can run an impedance curve on it so we can see where it really is at.

Now, I did find a 2% loss when using speakers on my crossover, but my crossover is a very cheap poorly constructed one. A quality model will not fall nearly as much (I will dig around for a better one and run the test again).

[shawn k]

Shawn,

Run your test with speakers on that crossover instead of resistors.

I just did the test as you set it up and found a 10% loss in voltage when using resistors. When I switched over to speakers on my crossover, the voltage fell by only 2%. So, using resistors is not a valid way to do this apparently.

But this makes sense, as the crossover takes into account the impedance of the speaker, not a fixed resistance. Impedance tends to be much higher than nominal resistance.

As for ohms law, how would it work in your case when you don't know the impedance of your load resistor? It may measure only 4 ohms with a DMM, but put some frequency on it, and it will change. I own the same load resistor as you do (at least they look the same), maybe I can run an impedance curve on it so we can see where it really is at.

Now, I did find a 2% loss when using speakers on my crossover, but my crossover is a very cheap poorly constructed one. A quality model will not fall nearly as much (I will dig around for a better one and run the test again).

Again, this is EXACTY what I was afraid of.

Look, even "IF" I ran my test with a speaker, it's not going to do any good!! You will simply dispute it and make up yet another bullshit/heresay remark and try your best to discredit any valid information given only because you simply cannot admit when YOU'RE WRONG. Again... it's just a rediculous viscious circle with you!

YOU ARE WRONG MAN I don't care how you try and spin this YOU"RE WRONG

When I first joined this Phorum, I actually believed you were a knowledgeable guy. I was also intrigued by your Sound buggy site. However, I have now lost all hope for you. I have lost any shred of respect for you as well. You consistantly come up with rediculous comments and replies that even go against the laws of physics, which is completely obsurd. I have found that your kowledge on the subject matter if FAR from being sufficient to have any tangible credibility

I don't even remotely care what you "say" you found in your results! The fact that you jump on me for not providing any "evidance" for my comments only establishes how much of a "want a be" you are when you do not practice what you preach I don't even trust that you are competent enough to even pull off such a test and provide legitimate results

Nice try man, nice try

Oh, and for the record.... A resistor is a resistor! A resistor is NOT a speaker. A resistor does NOT have an impedance curve! Speakers DO have an impedance curve because of the Inductive reactance of the voice coil! In a perfect world... A speaker WOULD NOT have an impedance curve and would peform like a resistor!!!!

Go back to school, pick up some good reading material, experimant a liitle more... I don't care what you do, but please for the love of God GET EDUCATED!!!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Eric D]

OK, now that Shawn is done with his rant, time for some results I had. By the way, I am guessing Shawn just went off on that rant because he connected some speakers to his crossover and discovered I am the one who is right on this issue!

I first ran the test as Shawn did using resistors, I ended up with a loss of 10%. At this point I admit, I was pretty worried Shawn was actually right.

Well, I then ran this test...







With 1V of input I got 0.972 volts at the midrange. That would be a 2.8% loss.

I then ran the same test with my Boston Z6 component set. Here is what I got...







Now, if you look at those measurements, you find I had 1.002V of input, and 1.014V output. If you do the math, this is actually a gain! Now, I realize this seems impossible, but these are the results I got. This is exactly the "resonance" I mentioned way back in this thread.

I will do the test at a higher voltage than 1V, but I am not going up to 10V or more. I see no point in blowing a speaker from my $1000 set of components just to prove Shawn wrong.

If anyone here thinks my test was some how rigged, or is otherwise crap, I will do it in video form. I can test the output of the amp with the DMM, and then pan the camera over to the outputs of the crossover to show the voltage.

One moral of the story here is cheap crossovers are not the way to go. But, all of us knew that already...

[Eric D]

For others reading this whole thread.

Most load resistors are wire wound types. They pretty much have to be to get the high level of power in a small space. Wire wound means internally it forms a coil of some type. All coils have inductance. Even a speaker wire coiled up on the floor in your home system has some measure of inductance, although very small.

Because of this inductance, the resistor has impedance. Shawn may not agree with this, but "perfect" resistors don't exist as he thinks so. So, I am not an idiot for stating his resistor will have an impedance curve.

Shawn can say all he wants about how little respect he has for me, how stupid I am, and how all I do is run him in circles. None of this makes him somehow right and me wrong.

[Eric D]

I just ran the test up to 5V, and got the same result. At this point my woofer was moving well over 1/8 in. As stated before I do not wish to smoke this woofer.

Here is the input to the crossover...



And here is the output of the crossover...



Again, the output is higher than the input.

However, 5.1V is hardly a lot more than 5.02V, so as far as I am concerned they are the same.

[Eric D]

I just made a movie of this test. I am not all that good with video, so I don't know how well this will work out. If anyone can view it, please let me know.

In it I first switch the DMM over to frequency mode to verify I am using a 100Hz tone. I then switch back to RMS voltage. I check both the input and the output to the crossover.

The amp used is a PG M25. The signal is from a 0db 100Hz track on a test disk. The speaker is a Boston Acoustics Z6, as is the crossover. I switched the crossover to biamp mode to disable the tweeter section.

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... r-test.m4v

[Eric D]

If you right click on the link I provided, and save the file to disk, you can play it with something like VLC. I just tried it and it worked on another computer.

[Eric D]

Shawn,

Run your test with speakers on that crossover instead of resistors.

I just did the test as you set it up and found a 10% loss in voltage when using resistors. When I switched over to speakers on my crossover, the voltage fell by only 2%. So, using resistors is not a valid way to do this apparently.

But this makes sense, as the crossover takes into account the impedance of the speaker, not a fixed resistance. Impedance tends to be much higher than nominal resistance.

As for ohms law, how would it work in your case when you don't know the impedance of your load resistor? It may measure only 4 ohms with a DMM, but put some frequency on it, and it will change. I own the same load resistor as you do (at least they look the same), maybe I can run an impedance curve on it so we can see where it really is at.

Now, I did find a 2% loss when using speakers on my crossover, but my crossover is a very cheap poorly constructed one. A quality model will not fall nearly as much (I will dig around for a better one and run the test again).

Again, this is EXACTY what I was afraid of.

Look, even "IF" I ran my test with a speaker, it's not going to do any good!! You will simply dispute it and make up yet another bullshit/heresay remark and try your best to discredit any valid information given only because you simply cannot admit when YOU'RE WRONG. Again... it's just a rediculous viscious circle with you!

YOU ARE WRONG MAN I don't care how you try and spin this YOU"RE WRONG

When I first joined this Phorum, I actually believed you were a knowledgeable guy. I was also intrigued by your Sound buggy site. However, I have now lost all hope for you. I have lost any shred of respect for you as well. You consistantly come up with rediculous comments and replies that even go against the laws of physics, which is completely obsurd. I have found that your kowledge on the subject matter if FAR from being sufficient to have any tangible credibility

I don't even remotely care what you "say" you found in your results! The fact that you jump on me for not providing any "evidance" for my comments only establishes how much of a "want a be" you are when you do not practice what you preach I don't even trust that you are competent enough to even pull off such a test and provide legitimate results

Nice try man, nice try

Oh, and for the record.... A resistor is a resistor! A resistor is NOT a speaker. A resistor does NOT have an impedance curve! Speakers DO have an impedance curve because of the Inductive reactance of the voice coil! In a perfect world... A speaker WOULD NOT have an impedance curve and would peform like a resistor!!!!

Go back to school, pick up some good reading material, experimant a liitle more... I don't care what you do, but please for the love of God GET EDUCATED!!!


AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I should probably quote all of this, in the event it magically disappears...

[shawn k]

For others reading this whole thread.

Most load resistors are wire wound types. They pretty much have to be to get the high level of power in a small space. Wire wound means internally it forms a coil of some type. All coils have inductance. Even a speaker wire coiled up on the floor in your home system has some measure of inductance, although very small. Because of this inductance, the resistor has impedance. Shawn may not agree with this, but "perfect" resistors don't exist as he thinks so. So, I am not an idiot for stating his resistor will have an impedance curve.

Ok, so apparently you have never heard of "NON INDUCTIVE POWER RESISTORS"??? Take a look here man: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=019-015 This is exactly what I'm using

[shawn k]

I should probably quote all of this, in the event it magically disappears...

Nope, not going to happen unless it's from a mod

[Eric D]

For others reading this whole thread.

Most load resistors are wire wound types. They pretty much have to be to get the high level of power in a small space. Wire wound means internally it forms a coil of some type. All coils have inductance. Even a speaker wire coiled up on the floor in your home system has some measure of inductance, although very small. Because of this inductance, the resistor has impedance. Shawn may not agree with this, but "perfect" resistors don't exist as he thinks so. So, I am not an idiot for stating his resistor will have an impedance curve.

Ok, so apparently you have never heard of "NON INDUCTIVE POWER RESISTORS"??? Take a look here man: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=019-015 This is exactly what I'm using

Wow! You caught me on that one. You are right, your resistors do not have inductance.

However, I doubt they are exactly 4ohm.

Either way, it does not do anything for your argument that passive crossovers "rob" power.

[Eric D]

Shawn, you might want to use 5 ohm instead, because your resistor will be around 5 ohm at 100Hz. I just measured my Parts Express load resistor and got the following data...

[shawn k]

I indeed did say that I was done with this, but I feel compelled once again to hold your hand and show you how it's done!

I also said that I wasn't confident that you could even accomplish a test like this and produce accurate results, and unfortunately I was right!

You CANNOT simplye apply your probes accross the input and output terminals to determine if a xover exhibits a voltage drop in a circuit. I know this "seems" like the correct way, but it's not! We are measuring an AC circuit which, in turn, means there are many other variables to account for. In this particular circuit, we have the reactance (resonance) of the xover itself, as well as the backfed EMF of the drivers voice coil! It's no wonder why you were getting "higher" voltage @ the speaker terminals!! Keep in mind however, that not all of this "extra" voltage is transferred into acoustical engergy!

The ONLY way to provide accurate results with this test is to first remove the xover from the circuit all together. This is how I previously ran my test (the correct way!) You first need to drive the speaker directly with the amplifier and get a baseline voltage. Record the results. Now you can introduce the xover while keeping everything else constant (same gain settings, freq used, input voltage to the amp etc.) and connect the speaker to the output of the xover. NOW the ONLY difference is the indroduction of the xover to the circuit. Make your measurement @ the speaker and there you will find your voltage drop! Easy enough right!? For even more conclusive findings, I'ld suggest doing this for multiple frequency points and in the end, one could make a nice grapgh to show the volage drops across the entire passband and get it done the "old school" way.

Like this:

Amp first driving the speaker directly:



And now with the crossover inline:



There is your voltage drop..ie.. loss of power

[shawn k]

Shawn, you might want to use 5 ohm instead, because your resistor will be around 5 ohm at 100Hz. I just measured my Parts Express load resistor and got the following data...

Dude! You're still not getting it! It doesn't matter what the load is!! (within reason anyway)

That's the beauty of the simplicity of the test I did. It's the "same" load before AND after the xover is introduced into the equation!!!

It "still" proves the xover is producing a voltage drop!

[Eric D]

Wow! Big loss there, a whole 2.2%. Almost the same result I got when testing the cheap RF crossover.

Shawn, you do realize that removing the crossover and testing voltage at the speaker connected directly will yelid the same voltage as the way I did it, right?

You are implying the load is hard enough to actually affect the amp. In this case it is not. The amp will not break a sweat on a 4 ohm load, with only 5V of output.

Don't forget I repair amps quite often, and have repaired quite a few over the years. I think I know what an amp is capable of.

[Eric D]

If I re do my test, and measure the output of the amp first with the speaker connected, then with the crossover and speaker, and end up with the same results, then what?

You still won't admit you are wrong.

[shawn k]

Wow! Big loss there, a whole 2.2%. Almost the same result I got when testing the cheap RF crossover..

The point here Eric, is not to necessarily "quantify" just "how much" of a loss it is.... I'm simply trying to through to you that it (voltage drop) DOES EXHIST! Now this was pretty low voltage and naturally as the power is increase, so will be the voltage drop. Also, I suspect that as everything heats up from extended play the voltage drop will only get worse. Again, this is an assumption and I intend to put it to the test.

Shawn, you do realize that removing the crossover and testing voltage at the speaker connected directly will yelid the same voltage as the way I did it, right?.

It didn't here with my results now did it??? I have a buddy I'm going to try and track down tomorrow. He has a spare set of Boston Pro 6.5 comps that I'm going to see if I can borrow and do these same tests in hopes that it will only further clarify the situation

You are implying the load is hard enough to actually affect the amp. In this case it is not. The amp will not break a sweat on a 4 ohm load, with only 5V of output.

Don't forget I repair amps quite often, and have repaired quite a few over the years. I think I know what an amp is capable of.

I'm not sure how you came away with that, because I was not implying that at all!!!

Of course the load from the xover doesn't "effect" the amp.... it simply "robs" at least some power from the drivers!

[shawn k]

If I re do my test, and measure the output of the amp first with the speaker connected, then with the crossover and speaker, and end up with the same results, then what?

You still won't admit you are wrong.

Funny, I said the very same thing to you earlier

[Eric D]

If I re do my test, and measure the output of the amp first with the speaker connected, then with the crossover and speaker, and end up with the same results, then what?

You still won't admit you are wrong.

Funny, I said the very same thing to you earlier

But the difference here is I am the one who actually knows what they are talking about.

You still don't understand some of the basics of this discussion, like why you can't use resistors instead of speakers for your test.

I think I am about done with this thread. Coming up with additional inaccurate, and improperly executed tests still won't make you right, it will just let more of your true lack of knowledge shine through.

[shawn k]

But the difference here is I am the one who actually knows what they are talking about. .

That couldn't be any further from the truth

You still don't understand some of the basics of this discussion, like why you can't use resistors instead of speakers for your test..

This statement only further signifies that it is YOU who doesn't understand the basics.

Hell, I even went out of my way to redo the test WITH THE SPEAKER instead of the resistor and had the same results!!!

You are simply being ignorant here and it's painfully obvious to anyone who is even remotely educated on this subject. You dug yourself a hole right in the very beginning of this thread and have only been ignoring the facts all in order to try and save any credibility you may have had. Truth of the matter is, you have only made it worse.

Good show

I think I am about done with this thread. Coming up with additional inaccurate, and improperly executed tests still won't make you right, it will just let more of your true lack of knowledge shine through.

Heh.. funny. You really should apply this last statement to yourself

But no.... ignorance prevails with you

[mrblack]

Not at all interested in getting down to a technical level on this with you guys, but I have a pertinent real world experience that I thought I'd share.

I went from using a PG M100 amp driving Infinity Beta Five and One components using the standard passive crossover that came with the set. This is one of the nicer capacitors I've seen with a component set, and back in the day sold separately for over $100 I believe. Using this setup my front stage was clear and powerful as one would imagine it to be. I had few complaints other than I wanted to see if it could get any better.

I then purchased a a PG M44 so I could take advantage of my systems already built in active digital crossovers to drive the same speakers. I made no changes to the system other than the removal of the passive crossovers and the swapping out of the M100 for the M44. What I encountered was a huge increase in midrange clarity, and a greater impact in the high's that was like something I'd never heard before, yet there was a buttery smooth decay to those highs that rounded it all out perfectly. To this day I cannot think of another time where I encountered a more eye opening difference in SQ short of an entire system swap, and here I was actually stepping down a bit in power and forced to use the imperfect preset cutoff frequencies built into my digital processor.

Now to be fair I also have a pair of 8's dedicated to midbass that are driven by an MS2250, so my 5's aren't solely being depended on to provide the systems lower mid bass snap. Regardless, the difference in clarity alone is enough that I personally would never want to go back to using passives again. I guess my point being, I would consider passive crossovers being an audible drawback in a system. I also cannot comment on the differences between a standard active electronic and digital crossover either.

[shawn k]

Not at all interested in getting down to a technical level on this with you guys, but I have a pertinent real world experience that I thought I'd share.

I went from using a PG M100 amp driving Infinity Beta Five and One components using the standard passive crossover that came with the set. This is one of the nicer capacitors I've seen with a component set, and back in the day sold separately for over $100 I believe. Using this setup my front stage was clear and powerful as one would imagine it to be. I had few complaints other than I wanted to see if it could get any better.

I then purchased a a PG M44 so I could take advantage of my systems already built in active digital crossovers to drive the same speakers. I made no changes to the system other than the removal of the passive crossovers and the swapping out of the M100 for the M44. What I encountered was a huge increase in midrange clarity, and a greater impact in the high's that was like something I'd never heard before, yet there was a buttery smooth decay to those highs that rounded it all out perfectly. To this day I cannot think of another time where I encountered a more eye opening difference in SQ short of an entire system swap, and here I was actually stepping down a bit in power and forced to use the imperfect preset cutoff frequencies built into my digital processor.

Now to be fair I also have a pair of 8's dedicated to midbass that are driven by an MS2250, so my 5's aren't solely being depended on to provide the systems lower mid bass snap. Regardless, the difference in clarity alone is enough that I personally would never want to go back to using passives again. I guess my point being, I would consider passive crossovers being an audible drawback to your system.

Thanks for sharing. This is pretty much identical with my experiences once I had finally went the Active route. Your descriptions are right on par with how I would describe the differences. This is also why I feel compelled to, at the very lest, recommend the active route. If someone decides it's too complicated, or costly, then that's an exceptable reason to stick with the passive xover. Otherwise, the benefits of an active system are very statisfying...IMO

It also makes me wonder just how many people (on this site) have actually tried both systems. The only reason why I say "this site" is simply because of the brick walls that seem to be put up once someone even mentions ACTIVE It's pretty common practice most anywhere else that active xovers (in genearl) can give you the best overall results as far as HiFi is concerned. This has also been my personal experience when comparing dozens (if not hundreds) of systems that I have installed over the past decade or so.

[capea4]

I am floored here!

Not to just jump in late but,

This is a joke, read what has been done by others before you, and has become common knowledge in the audio world. In the car, home, and pro worlds active has ALWAYS been the superior choice for so many reasons above and beyond what has been discussed here! Tuck tail, read some more and come back later with better logic. I may not post here, but my 17 years now in the car then home worlds finds this mindless ranting and horrifically misled findings disturbing. You, Eric are the reason I never believe what people have to say in forums, and I can only pray some poor fool,(yumyum as we always called them) doesn't read what you spew and follow it as logic. I will not try to educate you as you seem to need to find things out for yourself, I just ask you to keep your experiments up with more of an open mind, not one trying to prove your thoughts as truth. Please read this page others have posted to start with (http://www.bcae1.com/elxovsp2.htm). DO NOT come back claiming the writer is wrong, keep reading it till you learn it.

Thanks,
a fellow reader

[Eric D]

Screw it! I give up! You guys win!

All I wanted to do was to try to prove that passive crossovers don't rob your system of power, but I failed. I lost the war. My point is moot.

Regardless, I am going to continue to use passive crossovers as are countless other people all around the world. And I am going to continue to use active crossovers as well, just like countless other people around the world.

And I will continue to recommend either options dependent upon the needs or perceived needs of the person interested.

I am not quite ready to throw these Boston Z6 crossovers in the trash, but the thought is crossing my mind...

[kg1961]

I don't know what to say Eric has given me sound advise he tests pg amp for them and other cpompany's .i have to say i believe alot more of what he said than some other (not saying you shawn)others but this is just me.
Both set ups are good is used right fine but this all come down to what you want and need.
But to go as far as saying i this is why i don't believe what is said on forums get your head checked these are people that use gear all the time. alot of the info on these 4 pages are points facts and so of it is very hard to put in words some is bs or what other have used tried and found out by doing.
you need to stop talking to kids with first cars age 17 that know everything. i have been around car audio since 1990 and sold it from 1995-2001
i have had many set up and i have seen used alot of gear. yes both people have vaild points but i would not go as far as saying i can't learn or believe anything when 2 people that know alot are debating
best of luck everyone
but again the question was had madisound custom built you crosovers?