"PG MS amps sound like crap...

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:46 am

... compared to Audison VRX"

Is what someone said to me the other week. Now I cannot comment as I have never heard any Audioson amplifier, let alone the VRX. The comment wasn't made so much as to imply that MS sound bad. Just that the VRX was supposedly on another level.

I wanted to get your views on this opinion?

(Sorry for the tabloid style head line!)

Thunderdome · Post by **Thunderdome** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:22 am

when I read that headline I was just about to call my connections in the UK and have you hunted down and killed like a dog but than I read on its your lucky day LOL...I,ve heard good things about the Audison but don,t think if any that there would be that much difference the ms amps are pretty clean IMO and some might say a warm sound opposed to say Orion which is colder but more dynamic so I think in the end it is all personal prefference and than matching amps and gear is a whole nother thing as some things just work better together certain amps with certain speakers you get the idea

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:28 am

I wanted the title to grab some attention and force a reply. I posed the question in another thread, but it got lost and ignored

Post by **Eric D** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:16 am

MS amps are pretty much flat, but that is a good thing. They don't color the music by adding distortion, or altering frequency response. (Now I know they do change it a bit, but the change is minimal)

This is true of pretty much all other PG amps as well, M, ZX, ZPA, Xenon, etc...

If someone thinks they sound like crap compared to Audison, then the Audison must be coloring the music enough for them to hear, and they "prefer" the sound of the Audison over the MS.

However, to my knowledge Audison amps don't color the music. They should be every bit as high end as MS amps are. So this person is probably just an Audison fanboy.

NewOldStock · Post by **NewOldStock** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:39 am

I have heard the Audison... they sound good, but they sound like every other high end amp I have ever heard. After Processing and EQ-ing

I have never seen or heard a system that didnt need some level of processing or EQ-ing... just straight out of the box, the MS amps have no processing, no EQ, nothing, they dont color the sound at all. The VRX amps have that built in.

So, to do a fair comparison, you have to color the MS amplifier externally. If the douche-nozzle that thinks MS amps suck by comparison is using the on-amp controls then he wouldnt get any kind of fair comparison.

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:46 am

I was always under the impression that old school PG were pretty much as good as anything. So I was surprised by the comment. I just wondered if things had suddenly moved forward in recent years.

NewOldStock · Post by **NewOldStock** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:06 pm

with everything moving to China, Korea and Taiwan... I would venture a guess to say that very little has moved forward. The gap between excellent and good has definitely gotten wider though.

I think most of the forward movement has been in processing power. Things like the BitOne, 360.2 and all the processing added to the amps themselves... but I am not in the business, just an enthusiast so I could be wrong.

Post by **ttocs** » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:38 pm

you will hear us defend our stuff to the bitter end but we are realists when it comes down to it. Pg makes some great stuff but there are others out there(like audison) that also makes great stuff. The irony is that you are compairing amps that are almost 20 yrs old aginst the latest and greatest and that is why we love it so much.

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:25 am

Well even if PG wasn't at the cutting edge anymore I still love them for what they are and the memories they give me. It was a special ere is car audio as we all know. But as you say, it does no harm to be realistic about other products. Thanks for all the input guys.

Haakon · Post by **Haakon** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:24 pm

I miss my old audison vrx setup..

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:34 pm

Why did you sell them?

Haakon · Post by **Haakon** » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:09 pm

I had to sell them because of bills, bills, bills

Even sadder when you see the rest of my stuff I had to sell back then, only kept the Focal TLR tweeters.. Even my NIB Cyclone had to go..

KUB3 · Post by **KUB3** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:04 am

Is it true that VRX have a warmer sound that most amps? How does your Tru compare in the spectrum from cold & clinical to warm? You don't often see this kit

Haakon · Post by **Haakon** » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:20 am

Can't really say anything about the Tru amps for a while, sitting here with a broken arm in cast for the next six weeks. No lifting, building, testing until then. But the vrx/focal utopia setup I had in my old GT-R did sound warm and laidback, not at all clinical and upfront as Focal can sound with the wrong amps.

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:44 pm

Im a huge fan of the MS and VRX amps... imo, the VRX is one of the best sounding amps made today...

Comparing the two, they sound very similar, but the VRX with the class A chips in them is on another level, as it should be with pure class A architecture...

If I buy any NEW amps for my Porsch to replace the Class A Alpines that are in there, it will be two Shadow VRX 4 channels with class A chips.

only problem is I dont have a spare 3 grand laying around I want to part with for a car I drive 500 miles a year.

Post by **Eric D** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:00 pm

The VRX are not Class A. Their voltage gain stage is likely Class A, but so is nearly any other average or above amp on the market.

If they were really full Class A, they would have very tiny watt ratings (25W is a lot), and they would require 0ga for each amp installed.

scottn29 · Post by **scottn29** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:34 pm

Eric D wrote:The VRX are not Class A. Their voltage gain stage is likely Class A, but so is nearly any other average or above amp on the market.

If they were really full Class A, they would have very tiny watt ratings (25W is a lot), and they would require 0ga for each amp installed.

And idle at like 30 amps

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:03 pm

Eric D wrote:The VRX are not Class A. Their voltage gain stage is likely Class A, but so is nearly any other average or above amp on the market.

If they were really full Class A, they would have very tiny watt ratings (25W is a lot), and they would require 0ga for each amp installed.

they have a chip that installs inside them to make them a Class A amp... maybe I misunderstood, but that is what they advertise...

looks like the VRX is gone, now they just have the jankier amps and a bunch of Thesis gear... is the Thesis line better or replacing the VRx?

Post by **Eric D** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:45 pm

All a chip inside them might do would be increase the bias current so they stay in Class A mode longer before entering Class B mode. But this is not all that impressive of a feature, and it still means they are not true Class A amps.

I have only heard of two actual Class A amps built for car audio use ever. One was around 10W x 2 into 4 ohms, and I don't remember the specs on the second one. Class A is pretty much useless in a car audio environment were electrical current is at a premium. To go Class A you have to move into home audio equipment, and sometimes even step up to 220V equipment where 110V just will not cut it.

oldskoolmseriesfan · Post by **oldskoolmseriesfan** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:00 pm

The Thesis is the flagship!!!!!! Im not sure how much better it is than the VRX, but for that money it should be WAAAAAYYYYY ABOVE

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:26 pm

Eric D wrote:All a chip inside them might do would be increase the bias current so they stay in Class A mode longer before entering Class B mode. But this is not all that impressive of a feature, and it still means they are not true Class A amps.

I have only heard of two actual Class A amps built for car audio use ever. One was around 10W x 2 into 4 ohms, and I don't remember the specs on the second one. Class A is pretty much useless in a car audio environment were electrical current is at a premium. To go Class A you have to move into home audio equipment, and sometimes even step up to 220V equipment where 110V just will not cut it.

Im fairly certain my 3558s are Class a as they say Class A on the chassis and were freakin bank back in the early 90s... Alpine said they are still the best amps they ever made.

STROKD · Post by **STROKD** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:27 pm

oldskoolmseriesfan wrote:The Thesis is the flagship!!!!!! Im not sure how much better it is than the VRX, but for that money it should be WAAAAAYYYYY ABOVE

go to Audisons site, there are like 15 Thesis models now... I think that is their new high end line

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:28 pm

I thought Adcom amps were class A? Or really close to class A.

Pillow · Post by **Pillow** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:33 pm

> for a car I drive 500 miles a year.<

... That is about how I feel on my 911. It is a '79 911 SC. Barely gets used at all.

I used to autocross it, but with 3 kids that does not happen anymore. I wish I had the time to go to track event again

I have two buddies here local with the same issue. One sold his 83 SC last year because of lack of use. And the other still uses his 84 for a Sunday driver.

15 more years and I can get back to it!

scottn29 · Post by **scottn29** » Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:39 pm

STROKD wrote:
Eric D wrote:All a chip inside them might do would be increase the bias current so they stay in Class A mode longer before entering Class B mode. But this is not all that impressive of a feature, and it still means they are not true Class A amps.

I have only heard of two actual Class A amps built for car audio use ever. One was around 10W x 2 into 4 ohms, and I don't remember the specs on the second one. Class A is pretty much useless in a car audio environment were electrical current is at a premium. To go Class A you have to move into home audio equipment, and sometimes even step up to 220V equipment where 110V just will not cut it.
Im fairly certain my 3558s are Class a as they say Class A on the chassis and were freakin bank back in the early 90s... Alpine said they are still the best amps they ever made.

Not class a. I think there were only 2 companies that made a real one for the car and I dont think either of them are in business anymore

Alpine 3558
Class A amplifier
4 x 40w @ 4 ohms (12V)
4 x 60w @ 4 ohms (14.4V)
4 x 120w @ 2 ohms (14.4V)
2 x 200w @ 4 ohms bridged (14.4V)
Fuse: 2 x 20A

Look at the fusing on the amp. there is no way a true class a amp will only use 40 amps of fusing even at the 4 ohm stereo rating. True class a amps do not pack alot of watts, just like real tube amps