The lets talk about RF on the PG forum thread...

[Eric D]

To start off with, this is why I don't use Rockford stuff anymore...

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

Now, I wrote that a long time ago, so the info and my ability to convey my ides has grown a little...

I don't hate Rockford, I just like PG a whole hell of a lot more.

[wash with gasoline]

The first car audio i got into was rf
I stopped liking them around the time they went from there pro series subs to power series subs, not sure what year that was? I still have a old hd mosfet punch45 floating around.
Made alot of noise when i was younger with a hd mosfet punch150 running a set of punch 12s in a 85, 86? vw gti 16v had some good times in that car...

They seem to be coming back a little bit in the last 3ish years from the stuff i have seen, but im WAY more into pg these days

[joerg]

I was into Rockford a little bit back in the day! I always liked my creepy looking headunit i used in my first installs (RFX-8140). I aslo had a chance to visit a dealer training back in the day here in austria together with a friend. I was impressed that u actually could run a machine for making cocktails with a single 50.2

But after all i changed sides and went on with Orion and later Phoenix Gold as Rockford became gear for deaf´s arround here. The name ended up in the best buy stores all arround and not a lot of people kept on with it.

[Rold Gold]

I won't front like I never had fosgate beatz in my car........

I had an 800a2 and a 600a5 linked running 2 JL12w1's and and some PG qx coax at the corners..... Thought my shit was the tightest too.......

[brenzbmr@sb]

i liked rockford from pro series up to power, although the first gen powers had major issues with dust caps blowing off.

the dsm and ix amps were great. rockford had it going on then after that it seemed to kinda go down hill.

now the lst 2 years i would say rockford has come back and really done some good things and there amps are alot better sounding and there subs still well are the same but handle more power.

i have a place for rockford in my heart...my frinds gonna get a daimond r tatoo on his arm for the hell ofit.

nuther rockford fantic from hawaii. the first guy in hawaii to get noted by rockford for his tatoo and was on the grand theft auto cover is a personal friend of mine and he has a nice tatoo on his neck.

[Bfowler]

i hate even the the utterance of the word fosgate. the only reason being i always saw pg and fosgate as bitter rivals.

its like an Israeli saying...well i guess the Palestinians aren't so bad....

[reallyxxxxxxloud]

CAN WE NOT!!!!

[lowblueranger]

Hello- this is my first post on here but have been checking out this site for a little while now. I agree Eric I like the sound quality of the Phoenix Gold equipment better than RF, but RF does make powerful amplifiers that produce alot of bass. I own lot's of RF gear nad some Phoenix Gold gear. I love them both- especially old school stuff! Hello again and nice to meet you all.

[smgreen20]

YES WE CAN!!!

I half assed liked them up until they came out with those Rocketeer jet pack looking amps. At that point all of their stuff went down hill for me.


Edit: Welcom to the forum, to the new guy.

[dako]

I'm guilty. Back in the day I used to have a 12" HX2 running off a 500.1 BD or whatever the hell it was called. It wasn't too bad, but I remember it sounding like crap at higher levels. I eventually switched to 2 12" Infinity Perfects (loved those), and a JBL 1200.1 amp. I think I had crystal comps up front too and a Clarion HU.

In summation, once I got into the PG XS series, the playing field changed for me. Drastically. I'd never heard anything sound so good.

[shawn k]

To start off with, this is why I don't use Rockford stuff anymore...

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

Now, I wrote that a long time ago, so the info and my ability to convey my ides has grown a little...

I don't hate Rockford, I just like PG a whole hell of a lot more.

Nice review! I remember seeing this quite a while ago while browsing the net one day. I commend you for taking the initiative to perform such a comparison as there are far too many peeps out there who like to talk the talk but don't walk the walk. Your test has put a smile on my face because it compliments my belief that not all amplifiers sound the same. It drives me nutty when people try to make an argument that an amplifier just "amplifies" and there are no sonic differences between different brands/models etc. Now I'm certainly not saying that EVERY amp sounds different because I know there are instances where some can be nearly impossible to discern from another. The point however, is that even quality amplifiers with ruler flat frequency response "can" not "will" have certain sonic signatures that will set them apart from others. I'm not surprised with your results from the comparison. I've noticed these same findings myself even without an a/b comparison.

I'll admit.. I'm an old school RF fan. I'm not ashamed of it I'll also be the first to admit that RF certainly isn't the 'end all be all'! I love car audio as a whole far more than any particular brand. Like I said before, RF is just what I grew up with and I've always been one for brand loyalty. That being said, once I got a little older and made some $$ and got my foot in the industry, I became a pretty big PG(currently have 3 ZPa's in my collection) and a/d/s fan. Back in 02'ish I was the install/store manager for a local shop and I convinced the the owner to pick up PG.. back when Ti and Tantrum were prevelant. We did very well with the line

[marko]

i had a mint power 1000 terminator edition, i wish i never sold it

[Eric D]

One of the biggest arguments in car audio is the "amps sound the same" argument. Well, most people don't have the whole story.

As far as I can tell, the original point made years ago by one of the famous audio pioneering guys was "all amps which measure the same sound the same". This I actually agree with. The problem for me is the actually measurements.

In the case of my RF to PG A/B comparison, I used my LMS to measure the frequency response of both, and they were the same. I have no way to measure phase, and distortion, or any of the other countless tests which can be done. As a guess, the phase response of the RF may be more in tune with humans detection of bass, which would explain how a RF amp has more bass, despite being just as flat.

As for the more recent RF amps, they don't do it for me at all. The newer tiny ones are now all made in Asia. That alone does not make them bad, but each one I have worked with has almost no headroom. RF was always known for giving you a lot more power than you paid for. Remember the old Punch 40? Well, today RF amps just barely give you the power you paid for, and that kills their value IMO. The physically bigger amps just prior (I have a T8004 for example), are some of the most underrated amps in existence. I think my amp is rated at 50Wx4, but I have measured it at over 200Wx4.

[Eric D]

Also, my personal favorites are the "ix" amps. The ix and the DSM just before them use the same transistors for the positive half cycle and the negative half cycle of the output signal. Both are NPN. When RF went to the Power line, and the x2 Punch line, they switched over to NPN, PNP complementary output designs. If you set up an A/B test between a Punch 200ix and Punch 200x2 transana for example, I am confident anyone will prefer the 200ix. They sound a lot better, and are not fatiguing on the ears like the amps made after this point can be.

[marko]

the punch 200ix and dsm's were some of the best sounding amps of their time..

[shawn k]

One of the biggest arguments in car audio is the "amps sound the same" argument. Well, most people don't have the whole story.

As far as I can tell, the original point made years ago by one of the famous audio pioneering guys was "all amps which measure the same sound the same". This I actually agree with. The problem for me is the actually measurements.

In the case of my RF to PG A/B comparison, I used my LMS to measure the frequency response of both, and they were the same. I have no way to measure phase, and distortion, or any of the other countless tests which can be done. As a guess, the phase response of the RF may be more in tune with humans detection of bass, which would explain how a RF amp has more bass, despite being just as flat.

You must be referring to the Richard Clark $10,000 dollar challenge I won't get started on that quest

I suppose I can agree to a certain extent about mesurements vs. sound. But... there's almost too many variables involved when talking about this subject. The argument I have is.. a lot of people try to state that amplifiers with the same power, frequency response, and distortion (let's refer to these as the big 3 for now) limits all sound the same. Well, this is far short for what can determine sonic signatures. We can take several different models of amplifiers with all three of these specs the same throughout, and still hear differences. Distortion is hardly argumentative as all quality amps will produce less than 1% and anything below 3% is considered audibly undetectable. Most, albeit there are a few exceptions.. New RF cough cough, will have a ruler flat frequency response. So If we take several amplifiers with the same power capabitlities, ultra low distortion, and flat frequency response, why wouldn't they sound the same right??... Well often overlooked are so many other variables, one of which you (Eric D) thankfully touched upon. Phase correlation. This is certainly measurable and can definitely provide sonic differences. People tend to forget or simply don't know that the amplifier is trying to drive a reactive load. Phase shifts and load swings are very real. Some amps perform better than others even though the 'big 3' stats are the same. Some other sinificant variables overlooked: the amps ability to deal with backfed EMF, Slew rate, pre-amp stage topologies, robustness of the power supply in order to provide transients aka 'headroom' (as we do listen to music and not sinewaves ). So I guess I have no choice to agree that all of these things 'can' be measured with proper equipment, but... this is far more involved than what so many people try to argue that if the 'big 3' are the same, so should be the sound.

[Eric D]

I could not agree more!

[shawn k]

Also, my personal favorites are the "ix" amps. The ix and the DSM just before them use the same transistors for the positive half cycle and the negative half cycle of the output signal. Both are NPN. When RF went to the Power line, and the x2 Punch line, they switched over to NPN, PNP complementary output designs. If you set up an A/B test between a Punch 200ix and Punch 200x2 transana for example, I am confident anyone will prefer the 200ix. They sound a lot better, and are not fatiguing on the ears like the amps made after this point can be.

Ahh yes.. good old BUZ11's and IRF540's I've had tons of dsm's ix's x2's I honestly can't say I've noticed much of a difference in sound between the different series, but then again I've never done an a/b comparison. I love em all, but the X2 is probably my favorite. Just from personal experience the X2's seem to be more reliable, perhaps since these were the 3rd gen it's understandable. Even though there's no audible gain, I like the ability to add a PSD to the X2's. The unfortunate thing with the DSM's are the daughter boards that are prone to failure. Hard to repair/find replacements for these guys
I will admit though that I could tell quite a significant difference in sound quality going from a 200x2 to a Power250x2. Simply swapping the two and gaining the 250 opened up the soundstage dramatically and it seemed to have much more control over the 200. As the power difference between the two is marginal I believe it's probably due to the preamp stage in the 250.

[Eric D]

Obviously opinions come into play with all of this.

I had two Power 250.2 amps in my car. They are identical to the Power 250x2 (and the 250m2 as well) other than the heatsink. When I played around with a Punch 200ix it blew the 250.2 off the map. Much less fatiguing on the ears. I do like the balanced inputs and the dual x-cards on the 250.2 version, but the SQ was not there. This was the point where I made my conversion over to PG. I replaced the two 250.2 amps with PG ZX450s (2 of them).

The little boards in the DSM line are very unreliable. That is why I prefer the ix so much. No little DSM boards in the ix amps. Hopefully you get an ix with no BUZ11s as well. I don't much care for those FETs.

I had a PSD as well, and that was so cool to be able to monitor your amp. Wish they had something like that today (RF that is).

[shawn k]

I competed with two 250.2's (chrome even ). Did pretty well. Accomplished 2nd at the SLAP Nationals in the Pro Ultimate class. Simple design/system. Alpine HU, 2-Power 250.2's, a/d/s 335is in the kicks, and 1-PG titanium 10" with PG cables. Everyone was impressed at how well it performed for such a small simplistic system. I'll have to scan a few photos and put em up in the "installs" thread.

The PSD's were really nice.. still have a couple Remember the CA1 VU meter by any chance? Did nothing for audio, but was a really cool little piece. Remember all of the old 'Perfect Interface' accessories? Cool stuff. I still want to get my hands on the tool set they came out with: phase detector, pink noise generator, impedance meter.. impossible to find for sale though

[brenzbmr@sb]

woot

anyway i would agree with eric over the 200ix then the 250m2

rockford used to have this perfect system two 250m2s strapped to two power 15s 8ohms for 1400 watts of bass in your face. well i built 3 of those systems for 3 differnt customers..they all failed. really had no output to match my 2 4 ohm power 15s on one ms2125 bridged(seriously)
all cars had alternators and big wiring. one customer was so fed up he offered to buy my amp and give me two of the 250s, so i did some thinking and this customer had 2 punch 200ix one running 4 sets of power componant mids per door.

so i swapped the amps to were the puch 200ix was running a 15 each and the doors got the 250s * big difference. so then i took the 8ohm drivers back and installed two 4ohm drivers and readjusted all the gains and BAM this thing kicked major ass. the boxes i made for the powers were about 3.5 cubic ft per tunded at 33hz. the customer was like WTF.

I never pushed that rockford system again( if i remembr it was the same set up they used in there impala) the one thing i did notice that was impressive is how much fuller the 200ix sounded then the 250.

so if i had a choice between one rockford amp that i would run it would be the punch 200ix. but i must say recently i did a system with a 12w7 and a rockford t 800.2 and that amp actually sounded very tight and powerful.

[brenzbmr@sb]

I competed with two 250.2's (chrome even ). Did pretty well. Accomplished 2nd at the SLAP Nationals in the Pro Ultimate class. Simple design/system. Alpine HU, 2-Power 250.2's, a/d/s 335is in the kicks, and 1-PG titanium 10" with PG cables. Everyone was impressed at how well it performed for such a small simplistic system. I'll have to scan a few photos and put em up in the "installs" thread.

The PSD's were really nice.. still have a couple Remember the CA1 VU meter by any chance? Did nothing for audio, but was a really cool little piece. Remember all of the old 'Perfect Interface' accessories? Cool stuff. I still want to get my hands on the tool set they came out with: phase detector, pink noise generator, impedance meter.. impossible to find for sale though

nice system, i like the ads mids from that era. also i used to have alot of those perfect interface equipment but when i lent it to a friend he sold it all for drugs..
i may be able to still get u some componants of that set. i recall that the rockford rep here said he may stillhave some of that equipment

emailing rf rep now...

[brenzbmr@sb]

emailed him

[Eric D]

Here is one shot of my system using the 250.2s...

Hands down the worst sounding system I have ever owned.

[Eric D]

I can't really rule out the fact there might actually have been something wrong with my Power 250.2s. The amps measured flat, and had no static or anything like that, but after 15min listening to the system I would have an awful headache. It did not matter if I was playing it loud or just above ambient noise. I swapped the amps putting the component amp on bass, and the bass amp on components, in case there was an issue with one of the amps. Same results.

I took a set of ZX450s and bolted them in place of the RF amps. I did not even do a great job installing them, just made them work. Set the gains for no clipping as I did with the RF amps and used it as is. Same deck, subs, components, EQ, everything. No more headaches and much more detail.