Phoenix Gold verses other SQ amps

[Marcotah]

I thought that distortion to the speakers generate heat...
Does A distorted sign produces are a kind of squared waves?
I think both of sides are correct, IMO, as a pure human (that is not an hybrid human, or mutant...) would not hear some other factors than 3% of distorted signal or more, as this same person will not be able to hear many other differences between 2 very good amplifiers.
PG amps are really good amplifiers, and I personally think that we have to consider too many other specs when we say it. PG always came with different things like LE amps (all lines), or that award winning crossover from tantrum, zx an zxti lines, the high-current amps, and too many other things that we usually dont see in most of amps.
Probably, a Tru tech can do better than a PG, but until now I would never let an MS1000TA go away instead a Tru or Zapco, or Audison.
In My Opinion PG does not have to be the best amplifiers all over the cosmo, since they are not the expensiver.
They are also bulletproof, my pair of teenagers M25 dont let me lie (15 years old).
Just my Opinion!

[shawn k]

I thought that distortion to the speakers generate heat...
Does A distorted sign produces are a kind of squared waves?

The "squared waves" you are referring to is what's known as "hard clipping", and in reality they are not true square waves. Clipping is indeed distortion, but it's not the distortion part that causes a driver to overheat. When an amplifier clips it can and often does produce up to twice it's rated output. The downside is that the driver does not move/excurt in the same manor as if it were being fed a clean signal. The driver can see twice as much power but with inadequate excursion. This can cause the voice coil to overheat as it's not cooling due to lack of air flow. Clipping only occurs when the amplifier is being overdriven and is getting a bit away from what we've been discussing which is the THD (total harmonic distortion) rating for amplifiers. THD is not related to clipping distortion.

[smgreen20]

Shawn k,

Please don't tell me you prefer a "warm" sounding amp.

An amp is supposed to amplify the signal/sound w/o any influence of its own on the original material in which it's reproducing. So when people say that an amp sounds warm (like tube amps), it's adding something that it shouldn't be. The PG amps don't do that.

This isn't a competition, get me a list of amps that can do what the 450 can do, in it's performance and it's crossover. The crossover is what's going to set this amp apart from almost all other amps. I just want to see, that's all.

I read that in a review in CSR a few years back. After thinking about it for a while, I find that true and subscribed to that philosophy. Tube amps to me imply the placebo effect on a lot of people.

[ShockTherapy]

ive heard a few professional installers personal competition SQ systems that use other amps so here is the deal.first system zapco amps image dynamics competition horns/6.5 mid/12s for bass and eq.at first i was thinking this is going to be loud but when he turned it up all the way to undistorted power it wasnt loud at all.in fact a strong wind could have blown the sound away one channel of phoenix gold would blow his entire system away.next xtant amps diamond audio comps/kick panel 12s for bass this system was louder than the zapco but the sound was very weak compared to phoenix gold the highs did sound good but the midrange and midbass very very weak.next zx450 vrs zed made planet audio 4x75 tube amp i used a mid level clarion and jbl gto 6.5 coax speakers these two amps sound pretty much the same.the sad part about it is a top level zed made amp is just equal to a mid level phoenix amp. guys any similar experiences?

Opinions are like a$$holes, everybody's got one.

I own at least 25 amps including a ZPA 0.3, ZX-475ti, MS-2125 and A Zapco Z600C2-SL, Studio 500, CTK-4.0. I've personally used these amps in different installs and to make a blanket statement about Zapcos like that is just your opinion. I've put my 0.3 up against the Zapco Z600 on my frontstage as well as sub duty and the PG didn't blow it away by any means. Zapco amps are top notch and are made to military specs. I love old school Phoenix gold (ms,m,ZX) but "in my opinion" they are of the same calibur as my Zapco amps, just different.
The internet is full of "audiophiles" that will swear to god that what they are running is the best! but let's be honest here... It's about what is best for you and your application. I truly believe that old school PG, Zapco, Tru, Soundstream and Arc are some of the best amps ever produced! And as of lately I'm leaning towards Linear Power. I do have to say that the ZPA 0.5 produced some of the cleanest bass from my subs that I have EVER heard. I love my amps like they are my babies... talking bad about one of my kids hurts my feelings.

[shawn k]

Shawn k,

Please don't tell me you prefer a "warm" sounding amp.

An amp is supposed to amplify the signal/sound w/o any influence of its own on the original material in which it's reproducing. So when people say that an amp sounds warm (like tube amps), it's adding something that it shouldn't be. The PG amps don't do that.

Not sure where you are trying to go with this... Are you insinuating that I said/believe this because I have not mentioned once in this thread about the "sound" of any amplifier. The discussion has been focused on the THD rating for amplifiers and I was trying to help clear up some misconceptions. Tube amplifiers (especially older ones) have high THD and are an exception to what I was trying to explain and is the "only" reason why I mentioned them. It had nothing to do with a particualr "sound" it provides.
That all being said, without trying to sway the topic at hand too far I will say that I do notice different sonic signatures between amplifers.

This isn't a competition, get me a list of amps that can do what the 450 can do, in it's performance and it's crossover. The crossover is what's going to set this amp apart from almost all other amps. I just want to see, that's all.

I read that in a review in CSR a few years back. After thinking about it for a while, I find that true and subscribed to that philosophy. Tube amps to me imply the placebo effect on a lot of people.

Hey I'm not going to lie... I think the 450, along with a ton of other PG amps, are fantastic but it would be difficult to compare just 1 particular model to another for a slew of reasons. Performance, features, reliability, price all should be accounted for. Just off the top of my head, I will say that a/d/s has some nice amps with terrific onboard xovers. Some older Arc amps perform well and they too have nice xovers. Older Xtant "A & X" series can be had for great prices and they have the ability to add xover chips for versatility. I'm not saying any of these are any better than the PG since it's all subjective anyway, but they are good amplifiers that can compete.

I'm not sure what CSR review you are referring to.

[The Golden One]

i wonder where zapco and other amp companys got the idea to use military grade components if i remember correctly even the very first pg amp had such components. and now every joe blow amp company is shouting from the roof tops we have military grade components. they steal ideas from pg and then try to act as there the first ones to use these parts i say they are bunch of low lifes if you ask me.

[smgreen20]

I know I veared off a bit, but that's what came to mind when I first read what you had said.

I will agree, the Xtant amps of then are sweet as well. I love those. Same for the a/d/s/ amps. I wanted their 8 ch (still do) years back.

[shawn k]

I still have an 860mx. Come to think of it... my buddy has had it for several years now.... I need to go get that bad-boy back

[Eric D]

Saying an amp uses military spec parts does not mean a whole lot. Most parts out there are "military spec". What sets military equipment apart from consumer equipment is the construction of the equipment and the way the parts are used (redundancy for example). So "mil spec" is just a marketing bullet.

I am a huge fan of Zapco amps as well. I only use PG due to cost and availability. PG has way more used amps on the market, so they can be had at good prices. My intention is to some day run a pair of Zapco Z600C2-SL amps in my installation. I don't much care for the looks of old Zapco (any amp with the watt rating displayed on it is ghetto IMO), but they do perform, and like PG you get gobs of headroom for your investment.

[The Golden One]

they say the first impression is a lasting impression and that competition zapco set up was the first time i heard there amps.and after that i didnt exactly run out and buy the first zapco amp i could find.

[brenzbmr@sb]

i have to agree with shawn on this, distortion will not kill your speakers, like he said it will basically play what ever is being presented to it after all distortion is still sound.

I do agree with the heat issue. heat does kill drivers. i would be more concerned with amplifier power supply clipping then distortion in audio path thats below anything we can hear.

But either way if it worked for u then its all good.

[The Golden One]

ive been listening to phoenix gold since i was 16 years old im not just some one who jumped on the band wagon like some people do. there are some people that jump from amp company to amp company and the next amp is always the best one and then this next amp is the best. me i already know phoenix gold is the best so the next amp is not good enough for me.

[marko]

xtant are stunningly good sounding amps but very unreliable and a nightmare to fix when they go wrong (and they will).

pg are just great sounding and a doddle to maintain..

[The Golden One]

i hear ya on xtant they were always weard amps to me like scary weard im glad i didnt like the sound of them or i would have had some scary weard amps. im just trying to see what others think and see if they may feel the same as i do but many don't and that's a good thing.

[dwnrodeo]

i have to agree with shawn on this, distortion will not kill your speakers, like he said it will basically play what ever is being presented to it after all distortion is still sound.

I do agree with the heat issue. heat does kill drivers. i would be more concerned with amplifier power supply clipping then distortion in audio path thats below anything we can hear.

But either way if it worked for u then its all good.

If distortion killed speakers, guitarists would have a hell of a time trying to play most music.

[ttocs]

I think he was confusing clipping with distortion and with all things considered it is a form of distortion right? Nothing will build heat faster and kill a speaker better then by sending the signal it gets into clipping.


That is maybe except the 120v ac, 50 hz test as that is a quick deatch for a speaker....

[shawn k]

ive been listening to phoenix gold since i was 16 years old im not just some one who jumped on the band wagon like some people do. there are some people that jump from amp company to amp company and the next amp is always the best one and then this next amp is the best. me i already know phoenix gold is the best so the next amp is not good enough for me.

Nothing wrong with that!! I can appreciate that philosophy. Really the only suggestions I would have would be: Keep an open mind...you can run PG your whole life and be happy, but still know there's a plethora of great performing gear other than PG out there. Also don't be persuaded by specs. Not saying they are useless by any means, but specs alone does not represent quality. It's possible to find a $50 swap-meet amp that has <.5% THD and a flat freq response from 20-20K but can it really perform?? Specs can only take you so far

[The Golden One]

i know what your saying about keeping an open mind but the amp wars can get pretty bad at times. ive heard trash talk from all sides ive done some my self when i had two 0.3's and a 0.5 i told my brother why dont you put those speakers on a real amp. he had a focal 3 way set up on that planet audio amp i know i should not have said that to my own brother but those zero point amps can make you think differently. but now that i have listened to his tru tech amp and though it may not sound as powerful as the big boy phoenix gold amps it does sound better than most amps ive heard.