the debate that stemed from the ti1500.1 review

[bruther]

This thread is exhausting.....Can someone tell me what audible difference THD of >1% and <1% would be.....never heard the difference and I think I have a pretty damn good ear. The old M-series amps and ti series amps are crisp clear and sound great......but so does the Roadster.....What is the THD difference between the class A/B side of the Roadster(RSD series), ti series and the M series? I can't tell the difference.

[jbob0124]

I wouldn't think you'd be able to hear the difference.

[kg1961]

on sub sound i would not think so... just like the old class a/b vs class D
I would love it if someone would take a older pg amp what ever it is and try them vs the new gear

[Eric D]

I can probably setup an A-B comparison of the two. I have MS amps and a few M amps, and some ZX amps to choose from. I can compare them to a Ti800.4 (the flagship full range amp).

I am not going to try to defend the numbers MW3 has posted. Any time you post exact numbers, you open yourself up to debate. Frankly I don't care what the numbers are on these amps, so long as they are "reasonable".

I personally would prefer to see the argument get back to if these amps are good or not, and get away from if PG salesmen are cooked or not. One thread on one forum with some inconsistent numbers from PG is not enough for me to determine the company's entire marketing program is dishonest...

[kg1961]

I can probably setup an A-B comparison of the two. I have MS amps and a few M amps, and some ZX amps to choose from. I can compare them to a Ti800.4 (the flagship full range amp).

I am not going to try to defend the numbers MW3 has posted. Any time you post exact numbers, you open yourself up to debate. Frankly I don't care what the numbers are on these amps, so long as they are "reasonable".

I personally would prefer to see the argument get back to if these amps are good or not, and get away from if PG salesmen are cooked or not. One thread on one forum with some inconsistent numbers from PG is not enough for me to determine the company's entire marketing program is dishonest...

let us know and yes I agree with you 100%

[Rold Gold]

Regardless of the THD numbers........ I've heard and touched the new Ti's and can't wait to get mine!!! I plan to run 1500.1/600.4 and a Ti12 but would prefer a D2 so as to run at 1ohm but 2ohm would work on 1 woofer. The size of the amp doesn't bother me atall..... They look badass inperson. I recommend swinging into yer local dealer to have a look-see if nothing else.....

As soon as I have the $$, I'm buying me some goodness!!!!

[ttocs]

what ever happened to the richard clark A-b amp challenge? Did that end up being a bunch of shit or what?

[Eric D]

what ever happened to the richard clark A-b amp challenge? Did that end up being a bunch of shit or what?

I believed that has spawned hundreds of epic arguments all over the world. Last I remember though, his point was any two amps which MEASURE the same will sound the same. Everyone seems to forget the measure part and jumps to the conclusion that any two amps will sound the same. I personally agree that amps which measure the same sound the same, but I don't agree that all amps sound the same. If it were true, then I would not be able to pick out a PG over a RF 100% of the time, blind or not. I and all the others I have run though this test could do it, so clearly those two amps sound different.

[jay00f4]

WOW! My head hurts.

How can you have 4 pages of debate with someone who hasn't seen or heard any product??????????????????????????????????????


Who is Randy anyway? His entire post count is bashing PG? Is there an ulterior motive here?

[jbob0124]

WOW! My head hurts.

How can you have 4 pages of debate with someone who hasn't seen or heard any product??????????????????????????????????????


Who is Randy anyway? His entire post count is bashing PG? Is there an alterior motive here?

Maybe his name is Scott

[Bfowler]

lets not jump all over him. he seems like a legit PG lover. and like many of us is just concerned with the direction of PG. we just happen to disagree with lots of it

[randy8876]

WOW! My head hurts.

How can you have 4 pages of debate with someone who hasn't seen or heard any product??????????????????????????????????????


Who is Randy anyway? His entire post count is bashing PG? Is there an ulterior motive here?

I suppose the same way you can get 4 pages of praise for a product that a person hasn't seen or heard. People generate opinions off reviews.

I posted a few questions.The answers from the PG guys were dreadfully inadequate, so I asked for clarification, which led to dodging of questions. Now all the other people chimed in with their opinions- which you allude to the idea they shouldn't be posting unless they've heard the amp.

Here's what I learned about the product and PG. It's an average amp, compare it to Hifonics. And 2 out of 2 PG reps either lied or misled when questioned about the products their pushing. They could have been honest and straightforward and ended this discussion by page 2.

So what ulterior motives do all the praisers have? I'm mean if someone says something bad they must be up to some scheming plan, does that go for the people that do the opposite?

[ttocs]

WOW! My head hurts.

How can you have 4 pages of debate with someone who hasn't seen or heard any product??????????????????????????????????????


Who is Randy anyway? His entire post count is bashing PG? Is there an alterior motive here?

Maybe his name is Scott

I might resemble this remark.....

[Bfowler]

I suppose the same way you can get 4 pages of praise for a product that a person hasn't seen or heard. People generate opinions off reviews.

ZING. oh man....thats seriously funny. i really want to argue with you...but thats a funny and legit point

[jbob0124]

WOW! My head hurts.

How can you have 4 pages of debate with someone who hasn't seen or heard any product??????????????????????????????????????


Who is Randy anyway? His entire post count is bashing PG? Is there an alterior motive here?

Maybe his name is Scott

I might resemble this remark.....

Sorry, wasn't meaning you, another scott.

[dedlyjedly]

First off, what is "baseline THD"?

Don't believe me or the other guy. Download the manuals. The M100 has .02% THD at rated power. Now he may have posted other dishonest numbers, but that was the rating. Surprisingly I couldn't find 1% listed in the manual.

I imagine that a lack of a definition for that term has led to a lot of this misguided debate. I interpreted "baseline THD" as the THD present at the least strenuous, and yet applicable load on the amplifier in question. If that was in fact how the term was used (and clarification would be great Morgan!), then you could also consider the M100's .02% spec to be a baseline figure. While that spec is certainly relevant and belongs in the owner's manual I don't believe it was applicable to how you and many others most likely utilized their M100's. You also had an M44 so its not too much of a stretch to assume that you ran the M100 for sub duties...Probably in a bridged configuration and loaded down as far as PG recommended. I wonder what the actual THD was under those conditions!? Conditions that were unquestionably much more strenuous than how the amp was loaded to achieve rated power! I imagine it was pretty high and much more comparable to the ratings you're complaining about concerning the Ti1500.1. Perhaps PG omitted that very relevant info from the manual because they were worried about a lot of audio geeks getting their feathers ruffled over some "high" THD specification! And while we don't know how high the spec was, it was considerably higher than .02% and yet these amps have been revered for their performance at those loads all the same! WIERD! Now on the flipside, perhaps the new PG omitted baseline figures from the manual as they were achieved at 8 or 4 ohm mono and not really applicable because very few, if any of us, would utilize this new breed of monster mono amp in that manner. Instead, they only reference the real world THD specs in official paperwork. This despite the fact that they would likely stir the pot and cause an uprising of oldschool purists that have long since misinterpreted and overvalued THD all together!! I wouldn't call that lying, I would call it transparency!

In short, I think Morgan referenced these baseline figures to draw a more realistic comparison to the old zeropoint figures that you brought to the discussion, not to be misleading or blatantly lie as you have claimed.

This is regrettably open to interpretation due to a lack of clarification. For this very reason I find it extremely unfortunate that you have chosen to call into question the integrity of two individuals on a public forum without knowing all the details.

And does PG have an Engineer for oversight in Korea? Almost every overseas manufacturing operation has an engineer onsite(contrary to what was posted). Yet if the best PG could do was have someone live on the same continent I'd say there is a massive lack of QA in the manufacturing process.

It is a fact that Morgan (who by the way is not of Asian descent! ) does live there and has for some time now. In this very thread we learned that Ti amps are made in a smaller buildhouse in Korea where only a handful of PG-trained employees assemble the amps. We also learned that a much higher volume of amps were being assembled in China under conditions that weren't quite as ideal. Given that information which location do you feel would require more supervision by a key PG employee? China perhaps!? Either you struggled with comprehension of their posts or you intentionally misconstrued the info at your disposal in an attempt to support your unfounded allegations! Which is it?

[randy8876]

I imagine that a lack of a definition for that term has led to a lot of this misguided debate. I interpreted "baseline THD" as the THD present at the least strenuous, and yet applicable load on the amplifier in question. If that was in fact how the term was used (and clarification would be great Morgan!), then you could also consider the M100's .02% spec to be a baseline figure. While that spec is certainly relevant and belongs in the owner's manual I don't believe it was applicable to how you and many others most likely utilized their M100's. You also had an M44 so its not too much of a stretch to assume that you ran the M100 for sub duties...Probably in a bridged configuration and loaded down as far as PG recommended. I wonder what the actual THD was under those conditions!?

I interpreted baseline THD to be a misleading statement. His lack of response since being asked for clarification on sequential misleading statements gives me the impression he wants this to just go away.
The M100 was rated at 100w per channel at .02%THD. I wouldn't call it "baseline" unless I wanted to redirect peoples attention.

Also, somebody referenced that PG now uses 1%, since it is the CEA standard. This is nearly true.

The CEA standard is 1%THD at 50hz. Did PG rate their amps at 50HZ, because they don't always use that frequency.

And if you read the article again, it doesn't even say what THD they tested at. Essentially, it a useless article- nothing more than a glorified ad. After all, a critical examination might lead to a loss of revenue from PG advertising.

I chose not to use the usual 1.0% THD limit, instead selecting the point at which the amplifier begins to clip

If I had to run my M100 at clipping to achieve rated power I would be beyond pissed off. I ran it bridged to a single 10w6 in a sealed box and I don't think it was ever stressed.

The other guy brought up the idea of a supervisor moving to China to monitor Korean production. Once he (a sales rep) brought it up it was free to question. One, the statement had no legitimacy as a value to the production of these amps. Two, all outsourced companies will have some amount of oversight- it's good to have an American to greet CEO's that tour. Three, he brought it up, then dodged all questions about it- kind of like a person selling timeshares. They tell you a misleading statement, then dodge all questions about it. Most people ask a question and accept an answer, which is disappointing. You should think about what these guys put out.

[randy8876]

This article says they got the rated power at clipping.

Does that mean PG expects buyer to run this amp at clipping to achieve it's rated power? Are these covered under warranty for the users that run their amps clipping all the time?

I've always avoided pushing my amps to that point, I think it makes them last longer- but I also don't drive my car at redline all the time.

It would have been nice if the article was more thorough. It seems more like an advertisement than a critical review. The posted review of the Ti800.4 was much better.

Also at 86% efficiency it made 92% of rated power. What does efficiency drop to when the amp is at 1ohm?

It would be nice to see PG use the CEA standards on all of their amps. If their going to rate that at the new standard of 1% THD, it seems like not following the rest of the CEA standard is done just to boost the power rating.

[Audiophiliac]

[twisted]

dood ok ive read this from you like..... 29 times !
its all been the same recycled argument from you!

the aamp guys have been very nice and given you very good awnsers and you call them liars.

the other members have given you very good honest awnsers and you (in not as many words) called them dumbasses that are on the liars nutz.

but the reality here is....... YOU refuse to try the amps and compare the amps for yourself!!!

and do you REALLY think that JL doesnt use BS marketing ploys to sell their products to the masses??????


i think you are part of the JL cult (like we are the PG cult) and you will never be happy with anything but JL.
i just dont understand why you cant accept it...........


and now i will go about my happy PG loving day!!!

and AAMP thanks for producing somthing fresh for a change. i hope to try out the Ti800.4 for myself soon!

and now i gotta give AAMP a BIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGG

HELICOPTA HELICOPTA HELICOPTA

[gbody805]

BIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGG

HELICOPTA HELICOPTA HELICOPTA

[randy8876]

dood ok ive read this from you like..... 29 times !
its all been the same recycled argument from you!

the aamp guys have been very nice and given you very good awnsers and you call them liars.

Wow, you need to read this column again.

They did not provide good answers. They provided dishonest answers, then I asked more, I got more dishonesty, and then they created a new topic and moved away. The answers given to not match the PG provided owners manuals.

Here is the good honest they could have given from the start

The Ti1500.1 amps are rated at 1%THD to be more inline with the CEA standards of testing. We don't follow the CEA standards precisely in order to achieve a higher factory wattage rating."

I wouldn't have said another word other than, thanks- I appreciate your honestly.

[eulogious]

HELICOPTA HELICOPTA HELICOPTA

This is one of the funniest things I have seen in a while Thanks for that dude!

[str3atwarrior]

Hahah nice one :p

[dontlookatme]

i will gladly pay 4 times the amount for a USA made "the one" amp... but it has to be made by no one else but chuck norris himself