let it rip- Batt vs Cap discussion/debate...:hmmm:

Post by **Eric D** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:57 pm

Well, please do us a favor and don't throw out any wild claims like that, unless you have some more to go on.

I have no problem with someone saying caps suck, as they are entitled to their opinion. But to post something which does not make any sense electrically is not helping the argument that caps suck.

I personally don't think caps suck, but I do think one is better off putting their "cap fund" into something more useful than a cap. Caps don't really benefit most people out there, but I still think they do benefit a few (even if a very small few).

The rest of your points further up this thread I agree with pretty much 100%.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:00 pm

Eric D wrote:Well, please do us a favor and don't throw out any wild claims like that, unless you have some more to go on.

I have no problem with someone saying caps suck, as they are entitled to their opinion. But to post something which does not make any sense electrically is not helping the argument that caps suck.

I personally don't think caps suck, but I do think one is better off putting their "cap fund" into something more useful than a cap. Caps don't really benefit most people out there, but I still think they do benefit a few (even if a very small few).

The rest of your points further up this thread I agree with pretty much 100%.

Who benefit from a capacitor? possibly someone who has the electrical to support what they are running, and then the use would be to smooth out the AC ripple?
I'll also say whatever I please in any thread I feel like, as this is the internet and it's the wild west with no Sheriff thx. Sorry I can not provide proof but I know what I read.

Post by **ttocs** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:08 pm

again we have already said that there would be little to no gain in SQ to filter the ripple for the amps input.

Stryker · Post by **Stryker** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:15 pm

ttocs wrote:again we have already said that there would be little to no gain in SQ to filter the ripple for the amps input.

Ok then why did EricD state that a small number of systems can benefit
from the use of a cap? before my latest upgrade i had a Stinger 35 farad Capicitor which was a hybrid something or the other. i feel it did nothing for the overall SQ in my car and actually was a hinderance.

Post by **Eric D** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:39 pm

A friend of mine had a pair of Rockford Fosgate Punch 200x2 amplifiers running his subwoofers. He had a 0ga power wire, and the stock battery and alternator.

His headlights would dim badly on deep bass notes. We stuck two 1 farad caps in there (just the plain can style), and the dimming problem was dramatically reduced. The lights would still dim, but only slightly.

This is just one example. From this example I WILL NOT conclude that caps will help everyone. Nor will I conclude that caps don't help anyone. I saw this before my very eyes, as I helped do the install, and if it helped him, I would guess there are at least a few other people on the face of the Earth which have been helped by caps.

So, from my own experience, I don't see it as fair to make a blanket statement that caps don't do anything or that caps are junk.

Now, have I personally used caps? No. Nor will I. I don't like caps in my own installs. My main reason is I find them to be dangerous. Even if they made my system 10 times better or louder, I would still not use them. I like my own system to be predictable, reliable, and simple. I don't need any caps to accomplish that.

For the record, I don't think caps (like the 1 farad can type) do anything at all for SQ. The power supply of the amp already has enough filtration for SQ reasons. Unless it happens to be a really junk amp design. All I have ever seen a cap do is reduce headlight dimming. They NEVER make the dimming go away completely (or at least I have never seen them accomplish that). In my friend's install I mentioned, and in systems done where I worked as an installer, the caps did also improve SPL, but that makes sense, as the reduction in headlight dimming can be traced back to increased voltage available to the amp, which would give a wee bit more output in an unregulated design.

One last tidbit. If caps did not do anything, would they still be for sale? Car audio fans have been playing around with caps since the 80's, my guess is if they did not do anything, there would have been enough bad experience floating around people would have totally given up on them by now. We are talking around 25 years of use here. Then again, audio is a different beast and a lot of people in audio think that spending money automatically equates to increased performance.

THUMP-LUMP · Post by **THUMP-LUMP** » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:44 pm

Eric D wrote: In my friend's install I mentioned, and in systems done where I worked as an installer, the caps did also improve SPL, but that makes sense, as the reduction in headlight dimming can be traced back to increased voltage available to the amp, which would give a wee bit more output in an unregulated design.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Caps will help you get that last little bit of SPL out of a system. But I also think that they have fell out of favor for one simple reason. Where SPL use to be what many systems where all about, the people that are still into car stereo have gotten older and have influenced the current trend of SQ. So many other things play into the SQ aspect that the small increase in SPL from caps isn't needed or wanted anymore. More people are spending their $$$ on things that will improve the imaging, sound stage and freq. response and less on things that improve SPL.

Kurt Wild · Post by **Kurt Wild** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:25 am

Much smaller than 1 farad "audio quality" caps connected to the HU power wiring have been reported to improve sound quality. It's quite possible that filtering out voltage ripple and RF noise can improve sound quality.

Big caps can help out with amps if your power wiring is much too flimsy. But then again the same money spent on proper wiring is more useful.

Post by **ttocs** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:40 am

ok, you guys broke me I give up. Where is the smiley beating the dead horse?

Post by **Eric D** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:54 am

ttocs wrote:ok, you guys broke me I give up. Where is the smiley beating the dead horse?

This discussion has gone full circle, and essentially accomplished nothing.

I think the bottom line here is if you don't think caps do anything, then don't buy or use them. If you do think they do something, then go ahead and put some money into them.

Post by **Eric D** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:56 am

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:56 am

^^^^^^^^^^^ NICE how do you guys do that stuff!

i enjoyed the thread- learned a bunch and heard live data from real ppl -

think i am going to sell the Ti-Al-PC15 now!

or at least remove it from the chain for now and see what sound/power differences there are if any...

BUT this piece may find itself on chopping block here shortly

m

Post by **kg1961** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:02 am

Eric D wrote:

that great Eric!!!!! It have not need or wanted a cap for my installs in years
I have used them but i have had more set up that have not and im happy

Post by **ttocs** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 8:36 am

Before you yank it out completely, do a A-B comparison with it and see if you notice any changes in SQ, SPL, or light dimming. Play some bass CD's and see how the charging system is different before/after with the same tracks. Play a couple of SQ songs as well as see if there there is as much ripple, and if you can notice any SQ differences.

Post by **Eric D** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:00 am

And when you complete what ttocs mentions, then replace your power wire with a 30ft 8ga you run outside the vehicle and back in, the same size as 90% of the installations out there with greater than 1,000W of power. Let us know if the cap does anything for the 8ga installation.

Post by **mhyde71** » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:03 am

^^^

^^^

ill get back to you on that eric... not sure i have 30' of 8ga wire...

mrblob · Post by **mrblob** » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:59 pm

Stryker wrote:
mrblob wrote:No, but the thing is, with music, you get a lot of bass notes. Dimming at the start of every bass note get annoying... Putting even a .5 farad cap in there might do the trick. That is the only time an alternator will not fix the problem.

I put in a digital cap for aesthetics (girls love large cylindrical objects lol) since I can't get an upgraded alternator for my car. Dimming headlights are a non issue for me since I have factory HID's which are basically powered by the ballasts, and they can operate as low as 9 volts.

My system will play at 14.1- 14.2 volts most of the time, but when I turn it up, it will start playing at 11.9-12.5. So my system struggles.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but PG amplifiers use unregulated power supplies, and put out depending on the voltage of the system. I remember the old ZX amps used to be rated to play full power at 13.8 V (not 14.4), which means PG amps nowadays are always putting out less WRMS (since most people do not upgrade their alternators).
Large alts do solve the problem of dimming headlights as well as voltage drop. If your voltage drop is that much you must be killing battery's at an astounding rate because at 12.4v and lower your battery is in discharge and that is not healthy for it. A battery is mostly used for cranking an engine to start it(obviously) after that the alternator takes over and powers the lights ,heater, stereo etc...
Spend your money on doing the Big 3 with 0 ga, and forget the cap.

I already know this, Caps are useless except the two scenerios that I pointed out. Alternators usually solve all problems relating to electrical issues.