setup advice

[Eric D]

I would not use the crossover or the EQ in your headunit. Really I would not use any of the on-board processing of that head unit, and just run it by-pass. But that is me.

I currently use a Kenwood KDC-X889, which is very close to the exact same deck as what you have (I think they are the same year), and all I can say is the on board features are pretty useless.

If your components have a quality crossover, I think you would be better off with a pair of M50s bridged (one on the right, and one on the left), instead of a bi-amped system with the M50s or even a M100 in there. The bi-amped setup has the potential to sound better, but at the expense of losing half your power (or more depending how you wire it). Most people are pretty disappointing at how quiet their bi-amped setup turns out (I know I sure was when I tried it).

[Jorg]

but when I bridge my M50 they are at 4ohm. But my speakers become 2ohm.. , right?

and how sould I set the crossover for the tweeters? ( on my headunit the front and rear have a max. of 250 Hz HPF )
and on my M100 it's max. 500Hz HPF?

[Eric D]

Your speakers control the impedance, not the amplifier. Chances are your speakers are 4 ohm. If you connect an M50 to a pair of 4 ohm speakers it will do around 50W x 2 (rated). If you connect an M50 bridged into 4 ohms, you get around 200W x 1 (rated). So, a single M50 will run your components at 50W x 2, whereas a pair of bridged M50s will be 200W x 2.

Your head unit, and your M100 don't have a high enough crossover point for tweeters. If you try it with them, you will blow the tweeters. Your tweeters probably need around 2,500Hz as a crossover point, and the only item you have to pull that off is probably the AX406a. I think the Symmetry would do it, but with potential problems.

To start with the most simple setup you could try would be just the Outlaw for an amp, with your head unit, one set of components, and a sub woofer. Use the passive crossovers included with the components. If you want the system louder after that point, then you can add an M50 on the components, or add something to the subwoofer side of things.

[Jorg]

so if I use the M50's for the kick speakers bridged. How do I connect my tweeters then?

Or if you mean it like this:

1 M50 4ohm, connect 2 morel speakers of 4 ohm bridged (got 2 ohm)

[Eric D]

Do you have passive crossovers for the tweeters and midranges?

[Jorg]

Yes I do.

I have the :

Morel passive crossover
Phoenix gold Xvr4 crossover
Fanatic xr3 pro crossover.

So your suggesting:

1 M50 bridged 1x200watt rms.
then use passive crossover and connect 1 kick speaker and 1 tweeter to it. (left side)

The otherone the same only for the right side.



But then I don't play active anymore. My crossover points are static and can't change them...

[Eric D]

The only crossover point you can change would be from the subs to the components. The tweeter and midrange point would be fixed.

[Jorg]

I almost there. Thanks Eric.

The subwoofer now sounds wayyyy more powerfull then before.

Only the speakers are not that powerfull.
The speakers are 140rms
M50 is 200 rms.

So should be perfect.

The gain on all amps are on half. Also the gain on the M100 is on half.
I didn't set the gain of the M100 to max.. just before clipping.

Is it better to set the gain just before clipping?

[Jorg]

Thanks alot Eric.

The subwoofer sounds wayyy more powerfull then before ( the gain set on half )

Only the speakers are not so powerfull
Speakers 140rms
Got them bridged at M50 ( 1x 200 rms) Gain is set on half.

The manual of the M100 says you sould set the gain just before clipping.
Do i get a better performance of my subwoofer if i set my gain just before clipping?

[Eric D]

I am thinking that with the head unit you have, you will need to have the gain almost all the way down. Your head unit should be able to easily drive these amplifiers, or even overdrive them.

I always set systems for no clipping, but I use an oscilloscope and test tones to do this, not my ears. I have found setting gains with my ears results in a few db of clipping, which is not all that bad, but when you are talking 200W a channel with your pair of M50s, setting anything a bit too high could result in failure of the components really quickly.

[Jorg]

Eric,

I switched off my preamp of the headunit. Do I have to switch it back on?

I do have an oscilloscope myself, But i some way it only works for midrange and tweeters.
For the subwoofer I just can turn my gain up and see nothing clipping. (weird right?) So I think I do something wrong for my subwoofer signal.

I have a cd with different frequenties recorded at 0db.

How should I set the gain propperly?

[Eric D]

I use my Kenwood head unit on "bypass". It disables the crossover, the EQ, and all the effects functions as well.

You are off to a good start with the 0db CD. As far as setting your levels, I suggest you read through this...

https://myeporia.eporia.com/resources/c ... per103.pdf

That does not exactly specify how to use an oscilloscope, but is very helpful with what you are trying to accomplish. I can tell you this much though, if you set your Kenwood head unit for flat bass, flat treble, and have it in bypass mode, it will not clip at full volume. This is important to know, as many head units on the market will clip prior to full output, even with everything set flat.

[Jorg]

Ok eric I will read trough the manual.

So set my headunit to DSP bypass and internal Amp on Bypass, right?

But then I can't use time alignment anymore...

[Eric D]

Nope, no time alignment.

[Jorg]

Got my Headunit oscoped and it's clipping at volume 25 out of 35, with signal 1000hz at 0db record.
Then I got my amps oscoped and set all gains propperly.

For the subwoofer I used a 40Hz signal at 0db
For the speaker composet I used 1000Hz at 0db

Specs of the composet:

Subwoofer : ?? don't know exactly (DD1508)
Kicks are : 40-4500Hz
Tweeters are : 2500-20000Hz

And my audiocontrol units, like the epicenter and esp2? How can I use them in my system, because one M50 is for the left speakers and the other M50 is for the right speakers.

[Eric D]

Something is wrong with your configuration. That head unit does not clip.

Check treble control, bass control, loudness, or any other possible feature you may have on. If you have the DSP enabled, it will clip exactly as you mention, so maybe that is still on.

[Jorg]

Something is wrong with your configuration. That head unit does not clip.

Check treble control, bass control, loudness, or any other possible feature you may have on. If you have the DSP enabled, it will clip exactly as you mention, so maybe that is still on.

DSP is off and internal Amp is off.

[Eric D]

Keep looking, as something is not right. I have never found a single eXcelon deck which has clipped, and I have tested MANY different models over the years. Yours should be no exception. If it is indeed clipping, I suggest you replace it. There is not much point in starting out with a head unit which feeds a bad signal to the rest of the chain.

[Jorg]

ok will do.

If that is the case, which headunit will you advise ?
( I saw a pioneer p90rs and a real nice Mcintosh headunit.

And I'm also planning of buying a PG ms2250 team edition ( fan cooled ) for the subwoofer.
and then use the M100 for the speakers..

Good choice?

[dwnrodeo]

I have a Kenwood X994 and with the O-Scope it starts clipping at 31 out of 35.

[Jorg]

I have a Kenwood X994 and with the O-Scope it starts clipping at 31 out of 35.

What frequentie do you use? and I how much db is it recorded?

[dwnrodeo]

It was a 60hz 0db test tone that I used taken from http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Test%20Tones/index.html

[Jorg]

One other thing, since I got my Sub amp oscoped....my sub is less powerfull. It's only playing a little when the volume level is at max.

I oscoped it as follows:

First see when the deck is clipping, set the subwoofer level on the deck at max. then my deck is clipping at 31 out of 35.
But my speakers are clipping earlier at 25 out of 35.

So set the volume to 25 max.

Now set the LPL control to max. and see when the amp is clipping that is just before 1/4 gain.

But when I play my music I barely hear the subwoofer..?? how is that possible.

[stipud]

Because music doesn't actually have a heavy bass line like you are expecting.

This is why I set my gains with an oscillioscope with my LPL turned all the way down. That way I can turn it up to increase the bass volume, because otherwise it's basically inaudible. Of course you risk clipping when doing this, so you want to be careful when you adjust it, and always turn it down a few decibels below "loud".

[dwnrodeo]

I'm with Stipud. I will set up some things with the O-Scope to ensure I'm not clipping, but after that I adjust the rest with my ears. Is it the "correct" way to do it? Probably not, but I don't turn my headunit up past 24/35 either because it is too loud for me. Do what Eric says, and find where everything clips with your O-Scope. Start with the headunit and work your way down the chain (signal processors, amps, etc...) If you find you do not have the output you're looking for from your subwoofer, adjust your gains to increase output, keeping in mind that if you do turn your headunit up, it will clip the subwoofer signal. I prefer this way because when I'm driving, the bass seems to lack due to road noise (I drive with the windows down) so I need it to have a little more output.