Is a ZPA amp with TBAT input noticeably better than ZX250?

[StillKeen]

I always lusted after the ZPA amps. I see on eBay they go for $175 to $600 now. One positive seems that as they were costly to buy, they've been treated better than some of the M or ZX amps I see on eBay.

For a relatively straight forward system, 4ohm components off a ZPA with a TBAT2 used on the input vs the same components off a ZX250 (or M25), is there night and day difference? It's my understanding that the TBAT removes all induced noise that could have been picked up along the RCA's, but is it just a huge difference? Do you think you could tell in a blind test?

I remember listening to a PG Sapphire running some components on a demo board, then switched to a ZX (or maybe M) amp on the board. The better amp was clearer and just sounded so different. Is it that much of an improvement again?

I'm testing some of my stash of gear, and once tested (replace some caps maybe), I'm going to look to sell some or maybe all (if I buy a ZPA amp). Is it worth it? Sell it all and buy a ZPA, or just re-cap a ZX250 and install that?

Thanks, and sorry for the vague questions etc.

[Kirghiz]

I remember listening to a PG Sapphire running some components on a demo board, then switched to a ZX (or maybe M) amp on the board. The better amp was clearer and just sounded so different. Is it that much of an improvement again?

That's sort of like comparing a Ford Focus to a Mustang Cobra. Unless there is something wrong with the better amp, it should pretty much always sound better.

[Eric D]

I firmly believe a ZPA will not sound any better than a ZX250 or an M25. It will just have more power for more output.

If you run an M25 at its maximum for example, A ZPA will sound better at that level, as the ZPA won't have to strain to achieve it.

Generally speaking, less is more when it comes to parts in an amplifier and the SQ of the design. The M25 is the very minimum quantity of parts PG could put into an amp, and the ZX250 is not much more elaborate as far as its power supply and output section are concerned. Yes, the ZX has a crossover and a fan control circuit, so those add complexity, but they are not a detriment to the sound quality of the amplifier.

Really, I have found pretty much all PG amps to sound the same. Almost all of them use the same basic circuit design as a building block, and this design is what gives PG amps their sonic signature. I suggest buying PG amps based on the feature set you desire, and the power level you need for your application.

[StillKeen]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm only planning for 4 ohm components, and don't expect to run them that hard. I guess my biggest worry was just if there was the same difference between the ZPA and ZX as I've heard first hand between the Sapphire and ZX. It sounds like at my loads, I'll still have headroom to spare on either amp.

I am installing one of my old amps (untested) into a friends car as a temporary solution for him whilst he waits for something nice and cheap to come up on eBay. This will give me a 'bench' to test my amps on before & after I replace the caps in them. It will also allow a quick comparison between the amps. Unfortunately I don't have a ZPA to include in the comparison and my Sapphire isn't around anymore.

I'm still going to look for a ZPA, as I've seen them on eBay and never bid, so I'll see if something comes up in my price range.

Thanks

[kg1961]

also watch the buy sell here(much better) alot great memeber with some nice toys
ebay can be a headache with miss used or bad repair jobs

[zeropoint0.5]

just don't think if you buy a zpa off ebay, that it is ready to connect and play........

but if you have the chance of buying someones gear who is "retiring" from car audio,

and it's all zpa stuff, don't hesitate of course......


please feed you're zx250 with a pld1 and listen already to the difference.........

you only live once.... make sure you never have to "regret" something..........

[dwnrodeo]

I firmly believe a ZPA will not sound any better than a ZX250 or an M25. It will just have more power for more output.

If you run an M25 at its maximum for example, A ZPA will sound better at that level, as the ZPA won't have to strain to achieve it.

Generally speaking, less is more when it comes to parts in an amplifier and the SQ of the design. The M25 is the very minimum quantity of parts PG could put into an amp, and the ZX250 is not much more elaborate as far as its power supply and output section are concerned. Yes, the ZX has a crossover and a fan control circuit, so those add complexity, but they are not a detriment to the sound quality of the amplifier.

Really, I have found pretty much all PG amps to sound the same. Almost all of them use the same basic circuit design as a building block, and this design is what gives PG amps their sonic signature. I suggest buying PG amps based on the feature set you desire, and the power level you need for your application.

I agree 100% here. I've A/B'd an M44 vs. Ti500.4 and haven't noticed much of a difference if any, Ti500.4 vs. RSd 500.4 and didn't notice any difference, and XS2300 and Xenon X200.4 and noticed a clear difference. The first two comparisons have roughly the same power outputs where the Xenon over doubles the power of the XS.

[freshkryp69]

ZPA

[Mr. Wild]

I agree 100% here. I've A/B'd an M44 vs. Ti500.4 and haven't noticed much of a difference if any, Ti500.4 vs. RSd 500.4 and didn't notice any difference, and XS2300 and Xenon X200.4 and noticed a clear difference. The first two comparisons have roughly the same power outputs where the Xenon over doubles the power of the XS.

The XS amp is not a triple darlington design whereas all the others are (not sure about the RSd). That would explain the difference in sonic signature. How would you describe the sound of XS amp compared to the others? I'm interested because I've heard a lot of good things about how XS amps sound. I have one but I havent hooked it up ever.

[zeropoint0.5]

ZPA

really ??????????????

[Eric D]

I am by no means an XS expert (only seen one in my life), but I think they are MOSFET designs.

The Tantrum amps are indeed MOSFET designs and they sound excellent. Some people might be able to determine the difference between other PG amps and a Tantrum in an A-B comparison, but it would be difficult.

I did an A-B comparison between a Tantrum and a Rockford Fosgate, and was shocked by how much better the Tantrum sounded, despite using a lot of similar parts. Again, I think it boils down to the circuit design more than the actual parts being used.

[zeropoint0.5]

the "marriage" between headunit , amps and speaker is another factor.....

sometimes it is searching to get a for yourself best sounding combination........


different headunits on the same amp(s) can give you also another result in sound.......

[freshkryp69]

ZPA

really ??????????????

Hell yes and you know they are your fav PG amp to! Im just biased like that, but whatever..

[zeropoint0.5]

ZPA

really ??????????????

Hell yes and you know they are your fav PG amp to! Im just biased like that, but whatever..

hahaha......of course...........


i stated before that the zpa0.5V2 feeded by a TBAT2 is the best 12V amp i ever heard play, especially in the mid and high freq.............

they are simply the shit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.............but everybody his own taste/opinion/expectations...............


But i admit here also i take the ms2125/2250 over the zpa0.3, soundquality wise..............

the zpa0.3 sounds more agressive then the 0.5, my opinion................

[dwnrodeo]

I agree 100% here. I've A/B'd an M44 vs. Ti500.4 and haven't noticed much of a difference if any, Ti500.4 vs. RSd 500.4 and didn't notice any difference, and XS2300 and Xenon X200.4 and noticed a clear difference. The first two comparisons have roughly the same power outputs where the Xenon over doubles the power of the XS.

The XS amp is not a triple darlington design whereas all the others are (not sure about the RSd). That would explain the difference in sonic signature. How would you describe the sound of XS amp compared to the others? I'm interested because I've heard a lot of good things about how XS amps sound. I have one but I havent hooked it up ever.

I will be the first to admit that I am not an audiophile and when it comes to describing how an amp sounds, I'm really at a loss for words. I can usually tell if there's something obviously bad sounding, but have a hard time describing what's good. The Xenon definitely had a lower noise floor compated to the XS which I believe contributed to some of the higher sound quality.

[Mr. Wild]

Ok. I know of a guy here comparing an XS2300 with some McIntosh and Audison amp and being blown away by the great midbass and powerful sound he got with the XS.

[StillKeen]

All very interesting.

I realize the cheaper ebay ZPA's will not be mint and may need some work, but I feel that spending some evenings with a multimeter and soldering iron on a ZPA is more worthwhile than some other amps. My 500Ti seems hardly worth the effort of fixing, as I've seen great condition ZX450's go for under $150. I'm doing it more as a learning/experience exercise than a financially sound one.

I'll keep an eye out on here and eBay for a ZPA (ideally a 0.5, just to have headroom to burn), and see what comes up. I'm rather financially constrained at the minute though, so unless I find a screaming good deal, it may be a while before I grab one. I fully appreciate that a loved ZPA from a member who's had it in a nice install (read: protected in an amp rack, not just sitting in the trunk with fifteen years of dents and scratches) would be preferable, but I don't have the ability to pay the top dollars that they'd probably want (ebay is $175-600 ... I'm going to need to be much closer to $175 and $600).

A friend is currently looking at secondhand amps, and I've suggested XS amps to him, but I didn't realise they were a different construction to M, ZX, ZPA etc. I remember when they came out, and they seemed an improvement on Sapphire, but definitely a step down from ZX. I've listened to an XS4600 on some Boston Rally 6'' components and an Xmax 12'' sub, and it sounded good (the sub was very boomy and not tight, but I think that was the sub and box design, not the amp), but I wasn't able to compare it to anything else side by side in a reasonable timeframe, so hard to know.

Getting off topic here, but if you had $100 (incl shipping) to spend, and were looking for a four channel amp ... anything stand out? Back in the day, I'd have suggested MTX amps, XS amps, Alpine V12 amps or some Soundstream Ref amps. The fact that you can buy a $700, 800 .... 1000 amp from the mid-90's for $50-200 now, is just amazing to me. The newer stuff is so foreign to me now too, so I can't suggest anything current to him.

[Eric D]

With only $100 to spend, I would look for an ugly (rusty, scratched, dented, etc) ZX450v2 and use it.

[StillKeen]

Thanks. Yes, a ZX450 would just be brilliant. I bought ($130-ish) a used Ti475 (the Ti one that came out a couple of years after the ZX450 as a replacement) because I couldnt find a ZX450 at the time. If I could find two 450's, I'd take one and sell my two 250's and keep one for myself too. Let the search begin.

From looking at the 'show us your stash' thread, it seems that theres more PG M/ZX/Ti etc amps in storage than in cars.

[zeropoint0.5]

good luck and take the right descisions.....

witch amps do you have at the moment ?

[StillKeen]

I'm still on the lookout for up to two ZX450/475 amps in poor to broken condition (repairable broken) condition, but I have purchased an amp for my friend. It's an Alpine V12 four channel amp from the late 90's. I remember them as being nice amps, but not favored in soundoffs because they weren't under rated as much as PG and not able to deliver insane power by running at low ohm loads. It's only used up half the budget, and when a 450/475 is found, it can be re-sold.

As for my current stash, I've got some two channel M and ZX amps and 475Ti and this alpine V12 as four channel amps. Over the next six months I hope to downsize this collection in quantity of amps, but quite possibly by selling them all and just ending up with two 450's or maybe a 450 and ZPA. It will really depend on how functional my current amps are and what I can find to buy in my budget.

Thanks everyone for the help. It seems nearly 15 years being out of car audio has been long enough for me to need to start learning again from the basics. Installing this V12 in a few weeks will be my first install since about 1998.

[Eric D]

I think I have two ZX450v2 and one ZX500v2 in "poor to broken" condition, all of which are repairable. Let me know if you are interested.