Spring build question - regarding capacitors

[ttocs]

Eric your the first dude I have heard say that you have actually physically heard the difference. But I respect your experience and opinion enough to not doubt it as I have heard things that others have said can't be done, but I know I did. What kind of car was that buddy with the 200 rockin? If it was the only amp I would dare to say that there is something that needed improvement in the supply chain.

[trickyricky]

Just as Eric mentioned before, no matter if you got the worlds best battery or HO alternator it will depend on the run of your power wire....You can have the best battery right next to your amplifier but it still to this day cannot discharge faster than a capacitor. That's why it is important to install the capacitor as close as possible to the amplifier's power terminal.

How long will you have those extra 50watts? Well think about it, if the burst/bass note only last a few milliseconds then you will only have that "extra" (I really don't refer to it as extra...more like WHAT you should have if the voltage didn't sag) for those bass notes. You won't have that extra 50watts all through out the fhz spectrum or output, let's be for real now.

I cannot say I heard a difference as I was not LISTENING to my numbers...I was WATCHING them and writing them down. So I can clearly say I SAW an increase in numbers (both voltage being more steady and the output of the amplifier being slightly larger...5% lol). I didn't hear it because I was testing with dummy loads, so I could get accurate readings....consistent readings. That's why I mention me adding a 1f to my bench and NOTICING a difference in output and voltage. For this very reason I can say you (ttocs) cannot call BS on my results...it was not a listening test (as we all know how those can go ) my test was with numbers...watching numbers change after adding a capacitor.

[Eric D]

I would guess anyone can hear a difference when it means being able to turn a head unit up 3 more increments than you normally could. Also, it is very easy to hear a difference between a severely clipping amplifier and one which is not, in my example, the cap kept the amp playing cleanly past where it had previously clipped.

I am curious if anyone has ever installed a cap and it made their system WORSE. My guess it is will either make it better, or do nothing to the system. I cannot see how it can physically make it worse, as a cap is not a load, and once drained it affects nothing in the system.

The system in my friends vehicle was a cheap Chevy car, with stock alternator, and the largest cheap battery he could fit. I believe he ran 4ga power wire, but it might have been 2ga. I know a few years later he upgraded to 0ga. At this point he added more amplifiers though, so the whole setup changed.

I personally have never upgraded an alternator in any system I have ever worked on or been involved with. I don't think the shop I worked at had ever upgraded one either. I know for a time there was a PG alternator in the display case for like $250 or something, but I don't think anyone ever bought it. For example, if your car has a stock 60A alternator, and you upgrade it to a 140A model, it won't really solve anything if you are installing a system with 200A or more of draw.

[ttocs]

I personally have never upgraded an alternator in any system I have ever worked on or been involved with. I don't think the shop I worked at had ever upgraded one either. I know for a time there was a PG alternator in the display case for like $250 or something, but I don't think anyone ever bought it. For example, if your car has a stock 60A alternator, and you upgrade it to a 140A model, it won't really solve anything if you are installing a system with 200A or more of draw.

Agreed and do we also agree that a cap on a 60A system drawing 200 amps is not going to buy you much time?

not only would I love to see what the power output is on a system with a cap vs time, but also the difference of that same system but with a good enough power source behind it.

[ttocs]

Just as Eric mentioned before, no matter if you got the worlds best battery or HO alternator it will depend on the run of your power wire....You can have the best battery right next to your amplifier but it still to this day cannot discharge faster than a capacitor. That's why it is important to install the capacitor as close as possible to the amplifier's power terminal.

How long will you have those extra 50watts? Well think about it, if the burst/bass note only last a few milliseconds then you will only have that "extra" (I really don't refer to it as extra...more like WHAT you should have if the voltage didn't sag) for those bass notes. You won't have that extra 50watts all through out the fhz spectrum or output, let's be for real now.

I cannot say I heard a difference as I was not LISTENING to my numbers...I was WATCHING them and writing them down. So I can clearly say I SAW an increase in numbers (both voltage being more steady and the output of the amplifier being slightly larger...5% lol). I didn't hear it because I was testing with dummy loads, so I could get accurate readings....consistent readings. That's why I mention me adding a 1f to my bench and NOTICING a difference in output and voltage. For this very reason I can say you (ttocs) cannot call BS on my results...it was not a listening test (as we all know how those can go ) my test was with numbers...watching numbers change after adding a capacitor.

Where/when did I say your test results were BS?

[trickyricky]

It will be hard to do an A B comparison in a vehicle, you would need a more controlled environment such as a bench table. I have done some on mine and I DID SEE RESULTS so I won't get into the whole argument of stiffening capacitors, I simply wont...don't want to use them then don't. I just find it amazing that those who claim they don't do shit have never even experimented or measure the results in a scientific way, lol.

See in a vehicle your engine is running it may idle at 1krpm when it's cold and 800rpm when warm and then it will vary when driving of course. So trying to measure and do comparisons is not as easy as doing it on a bench table where you have a power supply than can only provide so much power. Then you can start measuring and writting down numbers, you'll quickly see that adding a capacitor will help increase the output power of the amplifier (as Eric stated, the rail's won't sag as much as before the cap was installed). I did these test with SINE WAVES so this the output transistors were ON 100% of the time no transients (which would be a bit harder to measure and am sure would have a better result in tests) and I got results by adding a 1f cap to my bench.

I now have three 90amp power supplies strapped and that stiffening capacitor helps filter any ripples present on the B+ (EVEN MENTIONED BY THE manufacture of my power supplies, they actually recommend adding a stiffening capacitor to their power supplies).

Again if you don't believe it YET you haven't done any actual testing and measuring then how can you say or speak against it? I sure as hell won't get into the whole argument of caps, that's old.

I have hooked up plenty of caps to plenty of systems that didn't have them back when I was installing full time and they were all the rage. I can remember more then a few times swapping out gear and making changes that were audibly different/better but never once with a cap. No I have never sat down, hooked up equipment and measured it but lets be clear that neither have you, or really anyone that I have seen has. Anyone ever seen actual data on an A-B cap test?

All I have to say about them is they are a band-aid for a much bigger problem, and a pretty small band-aid at that in most cases. The only reason I do not support them is because I support the idea of do it right, do it once which is why I have a dual battery system and a HO alt that will more then supply the current needed. Most people would be better off putting the money spend on the cap into a new/bigger alt/battery but those do not give the good feelings you get like you do when you slap another part in the system.

That to me sounds like you're saying "you are just BSing, you never measure anything man" then again we are texting each other via the web, so I really don't know the tone of voice you actually said that in:D but I do know that I in fact did see results...positive results.

[ttocs]

ah ok didn't know you were back so far as if you read a post or two above this I say that I now agree that there is data to prove that they help power. Now I invite you to do that test again, keep the volume up and see how long those values from the cap stay up. Then after that if you could hook up a 2nd or larger power source and then repeat that very same test to see how long it keep the power output ratings it would be even better! Thanks.

[trickyricky]

ah ok didn't know you were back so far as if you read a post or two above this I say that I now agree that there is data to prove that they help power. Now I invite you to do that test again, keep the volume up and see how long those values from the cap stay up. Then after that if you could hook up a 2nd or larger power source and then repeat that very same test to see how long it keep the power output ratings it would be even better! Thanks.

Lol dude you are not reading are you? I mention my test are with SINE WAVES!!!! not music, not dynamic burst...I SAW RESULTS WITH SINE WAVES!!! Constant output, non stop..360...on and on...continuously...don't know how else to put it but it maintain positive results. I do this when testing for actual RMS power on amplifiers, so I have to keep it going for more than two or three seconds. Now who do you know listens to sine waves? By the time a drum beat or bass note hits and passes the capacitor will have more than plenty of time to recharge and be ready for the next bass note, that simple. Even dubstep music is not fast enough



well that last part I made up I don't listen to dubstep but know that shit is FAST!!!!!

[trickyricky]

Quick....name me any song that has a sine wave (low fhz) longer than 3 seconds in it. lol.

[Eric D]

I personally have never upgraded an alternator in any system I have ever worked on or been involved with. I don't think the shop I worked at had ever upgraded one either. I know for a time there was a PG alternator in the display case for like $250 or something, but I don't think anyone ever bought it. For example, if your car has a stock 60A alternator, and you upgrade it to a 140A model, it won't really solve anything if you are installing a system with 200A or more of draw.

Agreed and do we also agree that a cap on a 60A system drawing 200 amps is not going to buy you much time?

not only would I love to see what the power output is on a system with a cap vs time, but also the difference of that same system but with a good enough power source behind it.

A cap works best on a 60A system drawing 200 amps. That is kind of the whole point of using one. If you had a new 140A alternator, and an Optima battery, plus ran 1/0ga power wire to your trunk, all to power a single PG M25, you will probably not have any issues with headlight dimming, or the amp cutting out due to lack of voltage at the power input. In this case, the electrical system can easily supply the amplifier's demands. The problem arises when you install a 2000W sub amp and 500W to your front stage, then while playing your favorite song, the amp shuts down. In this case, the best alternator, battery, and power cable, will still not meet the needs of the amplifier during peak demands of a dynamic track. Adding two farads of capacitance to this system will likely let you play it louder on the volume knob prior to hearing clipping, and likely REDUCE (not eliminate) headlight dimming issues.

I don't own stock in a capacitor manufacturer, nor am I an employee of one. I really have nothing to gain pushing people towards capacitors. I will just suggest people do the math on it from the cost perspective. On any head unit I have ever heard, turning up the volume by a single increment is noticeable. This would imply the output is increasing by around 3db for you to perceive it. To get 3db you need to double your power. Since you can buy a 1 farad capacitor for around $40 these days, what makes more sense, buying 2 for a 2000W amp at $80, or buying a 4000W amp, and more power cable to try to keep it fed? If spending that $80 lets you play your system 1, or maybe even 2, or 3 more increments on your volume knob, I feel it was money well spent.

Disclaimer: My example above is based on headunits I have experience with, in situations where the system could not be played all the way, prior to experiencing clipping. In my own systems, gains are set low, such that there is no clipping at max volume on the head unit. Your results will vary.

[ttocs]

ah ok didn't know you were back so far as if you read a post or two above this I say that I now agree that there is data to prove that they help power. Now I invite you to do that test again, keep the volume up and see how long those values from the cap stay up. Then after that if you could hook up a 2nd or larger power source and then repeat that very same test to see how long it keep the power output ratings it would be even better! Thanks.

Lol dude you are not reading are you? I mention my test are with SINE WAVES!!!! not music, not dynamic burst...I SAW RESULTS WITH SINE WAVES!!! Constant output, non stop..360...on and on...continuously...don't know how else to put it but it maintain positive results. I do this when testing for actual RMS power on amplifiers, so I have to keep it going for more than two or three seconds. Now who do you know listens to sine waves? By the time a drum beat or bass note hits and passes the capacitor will have more than plenty of time to recharge and be ready for the next bass note, that simple. Even dubstep music is not fast enough



well that last part I made up I don't listen to dubstep but know that shit is FAST!!!!!

Ricky I never said peep about YOUR test specifically because we have not been talking about them since you said you would not provide data. But the test seems to keep changing now as it goes on, it would have more credibility if you did post the data as you keep bringing it up and referring to it as though I have had a chance to even read how you did it, asked any questions or even said a single word about it really.

Who listens to sign waves? We all do, sound is nothing but many many many sign waves. Name a song with a 3 second sign wave? That is pretty easy for a song to do, and for an amp to play a single sign wave.....

Again I would love to see these tests repeated with the same system, no cap and an big enough power supply for them to see both how much more power it has and how long it sustains it.

[Eric D]

Also of note, if you are playing a sine wave on an amplifier, the current demand by that amplifier is sinusoidal as well. At the highest peak in the output signal, the amp is drawing the most current. This is true on the flip side at the lowest point in the signal (negative voltage). If your amplifier requires 100A of current at the peaks, but your electrical system can only supply 75A, then the amplifier can get its current from the capacitor. As the signal decreases, any point under the 75A threshold of draw, the extra current available is going to fill the capacitor back up. When the signal crosses over the 0V boundary in the signal, the full 75A is there to feed the capacitor. Now, if you stick an oscilloscope on the input power to the amplifier, it will not look this way. This is because the power supply of the amplifier (with its own capacitance internal) is going to filter and smooth the signal.

[ttocs]

"A cap works best on a 60A system drawing 200 amps" - see now I disagree that a cap will work, might even add as much as 5% from the data shown but to say it works best in this case I think is incorrect. This is exactly the case I say that increased power supply works the best and this is exactly the case when a cap is a band aid and this is the time I would love to compare the output of the same system with a cap vs a no cap and a better power supply, as well as to how long it can sustain that output and I bet its better/longer. Anyone ever seen an experiment like this? If I did and saw the output of the cap was better it would change my mind but I don't think its been done, or will be done.

[ttocs]

Also of note, if you are playing a sine wave on an amplifier, the current demand by that amplifier is sinusoidal as well. At the highest peak in the output signal, the amp is drawing the most current. This is true on the flip side at the lowest point in the signal (negative voltage). If your amplifier requires 100A of current at the peaks, but your electrical system can only supply 75A, then the amplifier can get its current from the capacitor. As the signal decreases, any point under the 75A threshold of draw, the extra current available is going to fill the capacitor back up. When the signal crosses over the 0V boundary in the signal, the full 75A is there to feed the capacitor. Now, if you stick an oscilloscope on the input power to the amplifier, it will not look this way. This is because the power supply of the amplifier (with its own capacitance internal) is going to filter and smooth the signal.

I was always taught that caps store voltage, batteries store current. This is the first time I have been told that amps supply current.

[Eric D]

Batteries and capacitors store charge. Charge is basically electrons. When charge (electrons) flow, you have current. Their potential to flow is voltage.

Batteries have a fixed voltage. A car battery is around 12.6V. If you drain it down to 5V, it is useless. It will maintain around 12.6V until it is discharged, and then the ability to supply current will drop to almost nothing.

Capacitors have a max rated voltage, but will work just fine at any voltage below this. If you put a 20V cap on a 5V power supply, it will help maintain the 5V. If you put a 20V cap on a 12V power supply it will do the same. You can measure the voltage stored in the capacitor, but when charge is flowing out of it, that is current.

You mention wanting to see an actual test of a 60A system with 200A of demand. That is basically the example I keep mentioning from 20 years ago. The numbers are not exact, I think the alternator was 45A, and the Punch 200x2 is rated for 80A of draw (he also had a Punch 240x4 on it as well). Adding the cap allowed him to turn the volume up a few more increments than he could without the cap. This summer I would consider trying to duplicate the experiment. I don't have a cap to use though, nor do I have a car with a tiny alternator.