I currently have 2 sets of the BA Pro 6's running off my US Acoustics USX 1000f (Zed). I am getting decent sound from them, but wonder if I could get a fuller mid and higher SQL out of the PG's.
Currently, I start to get noticeably less SQ as the volume goes up with the BA's, and they start to get a bit nasty on the highs. They simply can't keep up with my TC 12's
I realize the biased nature of posting this question here, but I am hoping for some well-informed replies on the subject.
Thanks!
PG Ti Elite 6 comps Vs. BA Pro 6?
You probably need more power on the BA components, or cleaner power. They like plenty and just one pair of them are typically loud enough for anyone.
Many people here will disagree with me, but I think this question can be answered just with logic.
BA has been building speakers for years, and that is pretty much all they do. Recently they have made some amps, but those are just other amps with their name on them.
PG on the other hand has mostly built amplifiers, and if you add up all the speaker models they have ever had, there are not all that many of them. I feel PG simply does not have the experience or resources to manufacture speakers competitive with BA.
Many people here will disagree with me, but I think this question can be answered just with logic.
BA has been building speakers for years, and that is pretty much all they do. Recently they have made some amps, but those are just other amps with their name on them.
PG on the other hand has mostly built amplifiers, and if you add up all the speaker models they have ever had, there are not all that many of them. I feel PG simply does not have the experience or resources to manufacture speakers competitive with BA.
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Bfowler
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good thing they had morel Build those ones! (btw doc, good to see you around here more lately!)Eric D wrote:You probably need more power on the BA components, or cleaner power. They like plenty and just one pair of them are typically loud enough for anyone.
Many people here will disagree with me, but I think this question can be answered just with logic.
BA has been building speakers for years, and that is pretty much all they do. Recently they have made some amps, but those are just other amps with their name on them.
PG on the other hand has mostly built amplifiers, and if you add up all the speaker models they have ever had, there are not all that many of them. I feel PG simply does not have the experience or resources to manufacture speakers competitive with BA.
Welcome to the Phorum Damage,
I haven't heard the BA Pro's so i can't give any sort of sound input.
I believe Mastiff and Ahsmo on the board have used both. If one of them comes by they can probably give you a good answer. you might have to shoot one or both of them a PM as they both don't come by as much as the used to.
my ex-girlfriend said "its car audio or me"
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
Eric, thanks for the reply...
"You probably need more power on the BA components, or cleaner power. They like plenty and just one pair of them are typically loud enough for anyone."
I would say I am providing ample clean power to them. I am basing this on testing the setup running between 175 watts per set to just over 250 watts per set to the BA's.
The amp is Zed made, and is underrated. At specs, it produces 500w x 2 @ 4ohms, and the BA Pro 60 sets are either 5.8 or 1.6 ohms depending on series or parallel wiring configs. They are rated at 125 watts RMS, 250 peak.
I have tried both ohm setups, and found the BA's to be comparable in performance (within reason) at either ohm rating, which tells me at even 6 ohms I am giving them good power. There are no specs for 6 ohms on the amp, but I estimate the BA's are getting about 350 per channel (175 per channel RMS) with the current setup.
Good logic on the history, but you can also never discount the new guy simply for being new. If that were the case, Chrysler would be superior to Honda in the US car market in quality
"You probably need more power on the BA components, or cleaner power. They like plenty and just one pair of them are typically loud enough for anyone."
I would say I am providing ample clean power to them. I am basing this on testing the setup running between 175 watts per set to just over 250 watts per set to the BA's.
The amp is Zed made, and is underrated. At specs, it produces 500w x 2 @ 4ohms, and the BA Pro 60 sets are either 5.8 or 1.6 ohms depending on series or parallel wiring configs. They are rated at 125 watts RMS, 250 peak.
I have tried both ohm setups, and found the BA's to be comparable in performance (within reason) at either ohm rating, which tells me at even 6 ohms I am giving them good power. There are no specs for 6 ohms on the amp, but I estimate the BA's are getting about 350 per channel (175 per channel RMS) with the current setup.
Good logic on the history, but you can also never discount the new guy simply for being new. If that were the case, Chrysler would be superior to Honda in the US car market in quality
Morel did not build the crossover and tweeter to my knowledge, so using an off the shelf midrange is no guarantee for performance.
Just what Pros are these? I had my 6.5s running off a bridged ZX450, and could not tolerate the high output level.
Just what Pros are these? I had my 6.5s running off a bridged ZX450, and could not tolerate the high output level.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
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Bfowler
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eric, that's not helping your logical case! the Crossover and tweet are the best part of the set imo! the crossover is a modern marvel and the tweet is wonderful and transparent. even though i haven't heard the BAs i would guess that if they beat the ti's at something it would be in the midrange/midbass. it sure as Abraham doesn't have a superior crossover!Eric D wrote:Morel did not build the crossover and tweeter to my knowledge, so using an off the shelf midrange is no guarantee for performance.
Just what Pros are these? I had my 6.5s running off a bridged ZX450, and could not tolerate the high output level.
As for the mid, i was just following your logic. you can't discount the ti's because you say pg doesn't have the resources / experience to manufacture speakers when they were built by a company that has actually been building speakers 4 years longer then boston.
there very well could be other reasons the ti mid isn't as good as the BA, but build quality and the experience of the manufacturer isn't one of them
my ex-girlfriend said "its car audio or me"
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
The crossover is a functional joke.
Any crossover placing both channels in such close proximity as the elite crossover is an engineering abomination.
And, any crossover with flashing LEDs to make it match your amplifier lineup, while providing zero sonic gain, is also a joke.
The PG elite component set was clearly developed by a marketing team, not an engineering team. They were conceived with cosmetics first and foremost, with their actual sound being an afterthought.
It is fine to disagree with this, but take a look at other top of the line component sets from other manufacturers. You will find cosmetics to be far less of a goal. And, in the case of some speakers, they downright look like junk (Seas and Scanspeak come to mind). From the backside, Seas speakers have glue exposed, and the rough edges of the field plate stamping. Scanspeak uses a cone which looks like someone vomited up paper and then painted it black. These companies care about sound, not look.
Any crossover placing both channels in such close proximity as the elite crossover is an engineering abomination.
And, any crossover with flashing LEDs to make it match your amplifier lineup, while providing zero sonic gain, is also a joke.
The PG elite component set was clearly developed by a marketing team, not an engineering team. They were conceived with cosmetics first and foremost, with their actual sound being an afterthought.
It is fine to disagree with this, but take a look at other top of the line component sets from other manufacturers. You will find cosmetics to be far less of a goal. And, in the case of some speakers, they downright look like junk (Seas and Scanspeak come to mind). From the backside, Seas speakers have glue exposed, and the rough edges of the field plate stamping. Scanspeak uses a cone which looks like someone vomited up paper and then painted it black. These companies care about sound, not look.
Got "schooled" by member shawn k on May 10th, 2011...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
No longer really "in tune" with the audio industry, and probably have not been for some time.
Hands down the forum's most ignorant member...
Don't even know what Ohm's law is...
As for which BA's I am using, it's the Boston Acoustics Pro 60 set, which are 6.5" mids with 1" Type-M2 tweets.
Biggest issue I have is a lack of mid-bass and volume.
Bear in mind, I am also running a set of TC 2000 12's in a ported box (tuned to 30 htz) and being pushed by a Opti 2000D amp (which is feeding each speaker about 800 watts). This woofer/amp setup is the highest SQL setup I have ever heard for a single pair of 12's.
So, I need mids/highs that can bring balance to the system without having to run the level down a few notches on the woofers.
My understanding on the PG set is that the tweets and mids are Morel, and the X-overs are hand made in the US by PG. Not a bad combo for manufacturing if this holds true.
Biggest issue I have is a lack of mid-bass and volume.
Bear in mind, I am also running a set of TC 2000 12's in a ported box (tuned to 30 htz) and being pushed by a Opti 2000D amp (which is feeding each speaker about 800 watts). This woofer/amp setup is the highest SQL setup I have ever heard for a single pair of 12's.
So, I need mids/highs that can bring balance to the system without having to run the level down a few notches on the woofers.
My understanding on the PG set is that the tweets and mids are Morel, and the X-overs are hand made in the US by PG. Not a bad combo for manufacturing if this holds true.
The sticker on the PG Elite box states the the speakers inside are built in Isreal and the xover in the USA.
So one could assume that the tweet was also made by Morel as we all know the mid was.
I've played w/a set of the BAs and for my tastes they were a bit harsh on the highs the mid area was great. They were pushed w/200 wrms per ch. They sounded very good though at exteamly high volumes.
The Elite mid I feel would beat out the BA mid in it's low freq exstinsion as I'm blown away at how low and good my Elite mids play.
Me pesonaly would go w/a set of Elites, as I did anyway, but baqsed on a few years back when I was looking for a new set of comps the BAs were one of the sets I was considering. It came down to Diamond Audio, Dynaudio, Elites, MB Quart and the BAs. My finances at the time had me choose MB Quart.
I have since found, after years of waiting, the Elites at a price I had the $$ for.
So one could assume that the tweet was also made by Morel as we all know the mid was.
I've played w/a set of the BAs and for my tastes they were a bit harsh on the highs the mid area was great. They were pushed w/200 wrms per ch. They sounded very good though at exteamly high volumes.
The Elite mid I feel would beat out the BA mid in it's low freq exstinsion as I'm blown away at how low and good my Elite mids play.
Me pesonaly would go w/a set of Elites, as I did anyway, but baqsed on a few years back when I was looking for a new set of comps the BAs were one of the sets I was considering. It came down to Diamond Audio, Dynaudio, Elites, MB Quart and the BAs. My finances at the time had me choose MB Quart.
I have since found, after years of waiting, the Elites at a price I had the $$ for.
"ZPA's will have the same sound essentially as you get from the MS, they just feature a bigger shinier set of balls."
Install:
http://phoenixphorum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16998
Install:
http://phoenixphorum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16998
I just installed a set of Pro 60s with a friend a few months ago. They lack midbass, and volume as well.
I highly suggest you consider the older Pro 6.5 set, or better yet the Z6 set. With the Z6s, you can feed them 500W+ and not have an issue so long as it is clean.
Boston dropped the ball on the Pro 60s.
Back to the Ti set, I am pretty sure the tweeter is a China sourced unit “trans-sold” to PG as a Morel part then relabeled as PG. To my knowledge, Morel does not manufacture tweeters that small, only the larger tweeters used for home products.
I highly suggest you consider the older Pro 6.5 set, or better yet the Z6 set. With the Z6s, you can feed them 500W+ and not have an issue so long as it is clean.
Boston dropped the ball on the Pro 60s.
Back to the Ti set, I am pretty sure the tweeter is a China sourced unit “trans-sold” to PG as a Morel part then relabeled as PG. To my knowledge, Morel does not manufacture tweeters that small, only the larger tweeters used for home products.
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Bfowler
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the ti tweets were being built before PG relationship with Chinese manufacturers. they might be outsourced...but I'm fairly certain they aren't Chinese.
I also know PG did engineer the tweets and it was my understanding that morel constructed them per PG's specifications. i don't have any facts to back this up however.
i will harass errin about it when he gets back in the office.
I also know PG did engineer the tweets and it was my understanding that morel constructed them per PG's specifications. i don't have any facts to back this up however.
i will harass errin about it when he gets back in the office.
my ex-girlfriend said "its car audio or me"
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
actually to add a few things....
Scan speak now has all of there drivers made in china since they were bought out by tymphany. THis was told to me by a man who is in close contact with one of the head engineers of the revolator line. This doesnt mean there bad at all, trust me I just finished my Scan home towers w/ the 6600 tweet and 18w rev and they are stunning, even running off the passive xover
.
I am almost positive the ti elite tweeter is in between the Morel mt-22 and mt-23, this was told to me by the head tech of the US branch of morel about a year ago. He also said the mid is very very similar to the Elate line from morel, w/ just a few of the T/s parameters changed, so I doubt it's off the shelf.
The xover may not be a great thing to have both boards next to each other, but to be honest I dont see how badly it can hurt. Most amps dont worry about having each power supply in different heat sinks and outputs stages.
As for boston I dont havent played with much of their stuff besides the Z6 and old pros for brief moments. The Zs were outstanding for a car audio set of speakers, but better then the elites....not sure I'd say that. Both are very different speakers and have their ups and downs.
To be honest you want a better set of speakers....
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/produc ... ts_id=1596
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/produc ... cts_id=633
Thats what I am running in my car active and they tonaly are in a league above either the BA or TI elite. Not to mention the midbass output from the w18nx is outstanding and the off axis performance of that little tweeter is jaw dropping. The w18nx along w/ the Scan 18w rev is the best mid I have every used and the seas comapct tweeter hands down beats all tweeters IMO and in subjective tests done on DIYMA. That little tweeter beats out Rainbows Cal28 plats, Seas Lotus Ref, Dyn, and all other high end compacts. I am currently when I have time playing around w/ a passive design for those two speakers.
Scan speak now has all of there drivers made in china since they were bought out by tymphany. THis was told to me by a man who is in close contact with one of the head engineers of the revolator line. This doesnt mean there bad at all, trust me I just finished my Scan home towers w/ the 6600 tweet and 18w rev and they are stunning, even running off the passive xover
.I am almost positive the ti elite tweeter is in between the Morel mt-22 and mt-23, this was told to me by the head tech of the US branch of morel about a year ago. He also said the mid is very very similar to the Elate line from morel, w/ just a few of the T/s parameters changed, so I doubt it's off the shelf.
The xover may not be a great thing to have both boards next to each other, but to be honest I dont see how badly it can hurt. Most amps dont worry about having each power supply in different heat sinks and outputs stages.
As for boston I dont havent played with much of their stuff besides the Z6 and old pros for brief moments. The Zs were outstanding for a car audio set of speakers, but better then the elites....not sure I'd say that. Both are very different speakers and have their ups and downs.
To be honest you want a better set of speakers....
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/produc ... ts_id=1596
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/produc ... cts_id=633
Thats what I am running in my car active and they tonaly are in a league above either the BA or TI elite. Not to mention the midbass output from the w18nx is outstanding and the off axis performance of that little tweeter is jaw dropping. The w18nx along w/ the Scan 18w rev is the best mid I have every used and the seas comapct tweeter hands down beats all tweeters IMO and in subjective tests done on DIYMA. That little tweeter beats out Rainbows Cal28 plats, Seas Lotus Ref, Dyn, and all other high end compacts. I am currently when I have time playing around w/ a passive design for those two speakers.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
No, midbass output from the rsd was simply stupid, but the w18nx is far more accurate and true to the music.raffex wrote:has your midbass gone up a lot from the RSD 65 with the w18NX
The ti elite is quite weak in midbass though if not sealed, I dont have enough experience w/ the boston stuff but Doc aka eric does say they have to be sealed.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
To clarify...bdubs767 wrote: The ti elite is quite weak in midbass though if not sealed, I dont have enough experience w/ the boston stuff but Doc aka eric does say they have to be sealed.
you are saying Doc has experienced the BA's more or less have to be sealed to function properly? (or were you referring to the Ti's?)
Thanks for the help guys...
from conversations with him in the past he has said to me to me the BA z series have to be sealed to get a good mid bass response. Correct me if I'm saying somethign wrong doc.Damage wrote:To clarify...bdubs767 wrote: The ti elite is quite weak in midbass though if not sealed, I dont have enough experience w/ the boston stuff but Doc aka eric does say they have to be sealed.
you are saying Doc has experienced the BA's more or less have to be sealed to function properly? (or were you referring to the Ti's?)
Thanks for the help guys...
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
To back up MW3 the Ti comp speakers are made by morel to PG specs, the Tweeter was then moved to a US manufacturer for a time after the Morel revisions kept being made without authorization from PG meaning morel was cutting costs. This move didn't set well with Morel, so the mids were moved as well, when cost vs return made it no longer possible to produce the speakers they were discontinued. The tweeter has however been reproduced recently by another manufacturer to a far superior level of what Morel was initially producing and this may mean another variation of the tweeter may soon surface beyond the smaller version which has made it's way into the RSd line of speakers. Don't expect to see the mid make a return any time soon.
In regard to the Ti crossover, it is designed the way it is for very good reason. The resistors are placed side by side so that they heat more evenly under usage, this means instead of having two separate XO's that heat at different rates the single unit stays in balance. To the user this means that under extreme use if the system starts to sag from heat/power saturation it will remain in balance from left to right. The LED's in the board are marketing yes but they serve a function as well, they aid in eliminating DC spikes and square waves from clipped signals even of the most minute level that are carried down the tweeter outputs. Most high grade tweeters are very susceptible to damage from DC voltage even in small amounts, and the Ti's are no exception. Additionally the Ti XO includes eq circuitry, and phase corrections as the two speakers used in the set were not well matched form the start but were chosen for their ability.
I have heard both sets. I have installed both sets. I agree that the Pro 60's are a weak contender from BA. I prefer the Ti's in general over the Pro's as the tweeter is more laid back as mentioned before. The mids are very capable either way but IIRC the Elite plays a bit deeper where the BA is a bit punchier in the upper midbass realm. Both Mids perform best in a controlled airspace, not specifically sealed but controlled.
Damage--In your situation if you feel your tweeters are too bright or decay at high volumes take a look at the very outer edge, verify that they have the black rubber edge. If they do not I would advise getting a different revision tweeter. Also you say you have two sets, are these two sets by chance sharing a common crossover if so that is a very bad idea.
........and welcome to the Phorum.
In regard to the Ti crossover, it is designed the way it is for very good reason. The resistors are placed side by side so that they heat more evenly under usage, this means instead of having two separate XO's that heat at different rates the single unit stays in balance. To the user this means that under extreme use if the system starts to sag from heat/power saturation it will remain in balance from left to right. The LED's in the board are marketing yes but they serve a function as well, they aid in eliminating DC spikes and square waves from clipped signals even of the most minute level that are carried down the tweeter outputs. Most high grade tweeters are very susceptible to damage from DC voltage even in small amounts, and the Ti's are no exception. Additionally the Ti XO includes eq circuitry, and phase corrections as the two speakers used in the set were not well matched form the start but were chosen for their ability.
I have heard both sets. I have installed both sets. I agree that the Pro 60's are a weak contender from BA. I prefer the Ti's in general over the Pro's as the tweeter is more laid back as mentioned before. The mids are very capable either way but IIRC the Elite plays a bit deeper where the BA is a bit punchier in the upper midbass realm. Both Mids perform best in a controlled airspace, not specifically sealed but controlled.
Damage--In your situation if you feel your tweeters are too bright or decay at high volumes take a look at the very outer edge, verify that they have the black rubber edge. If they do not I would advise getting a different revision tweeter. Also you say you have two sets, are these two sets by chance sharing a common crossover if so that is a very bad idea.
........and welcome to the Phorum.
I think we've established that "Ka Ka" and "Tukki Tukki" don't work.
Where would I get these? I have one of the earliest sets of Ti Elites... before they even came with flush mount grilles.VW337 wrote:Damage--In your situation if you feel your tweeters are too bright or decay at high volumes take a look at the very outer edge, verify that they have the black rubber edge. If they do not I would advise getting a different revision tweeter.
First off...thanks for the welcome. Seems like a decent bunch of folks around here so far.
Second, I am running two complete sets of the Pro 60's...to those unfamiliar with the BA's, this means I have 4 x-overs under each front seat. The mids and tweets have seperate x-overs which are slaved together, and I am running each of those slaved pairs to the second set of slaved pairs in series (a full set for the right channel, and vice-versa).
Short answer...no, I am not running more than one speaker from any of the x-overs. I am still at the 1 speaker/1 x-over ratio, and I am presenting a 5.8 ohm load per channel to my 2 channel amp.
My biggest issue with the tweets is poor off-axis presence. If I place my head in the middle of my front area close to the dash, I get a nice sweet spot with sparkling clear highs. If I lean back in the drivers seat, the highs lose a good bit of presence and sparkle.
My biggest issue with the mids is poor mid-bass. I suspected I might need to enclose them in some manner, and after the advice here I am thinking that might address at least some of this issue for me. A coworker asked me today on the way to lunch if I had the mids scooped in my setup, as the upper end of the bass guitar and the meat of the 6 string guitars were thin...which has been the case for me as well. My HU is set at flat, btw.
As for the PG's...
I can get a set of the 6.5 Ti comps for $300 NIB. Am I reading the above information as saying there is a time period (towards the end, perhaps?) that these had some quality issues (which would explain their presence on a wholesale site)?
Second, I am running two complete sets of the Pro 60's...to those unfamiliar with the BA's, this means I have 4 x-overs under each front seat. The mids and tweets have seperate x-overs which are slaved together, and I am running each of those slaved pairs to the second set of slaved pairs in series (a full set for the right channel, and vice-versa).
Short answer...no, I am not running more than one speaker from any of the x-overs. I am still at the 1 speaker/1 x-over ratio, and I am presenting a 5.8 ohm load per channel to my 2 channel amp.
My biggest issue with the tweets is poor off-axis presence. If I place my head in the middle of my front area close to the dash, I get a nice sweet spot with sparkling clear highs. If I lean back in the drivers seat, the highs lose a good bit of presence and sparkle.
My biggest issue with the mids is poor mid-bass. I suspected I might need to enclose them in some manner, and after the advice here I am thinking that might address at least some of this issue for me. A coworker asked me today on the way to lunch if I had the mids scooped in my setup, as the upper end of the bass guitar and the meat of the 6 string guitars were thin...which has been the case for me as well. My HU is set at flat, btw.
As for the PG's...
I can get a set of the 6.5 Ti comps for $300 NIB. Am I reading the above information as saying there is a time period (towards the end, perhaps?) that these had some quality issues (which would explain their presence on a wholesale site)?
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Bfowler
- Briaans..... BRIAAAAANNNNNNS
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no, the problems were in the first run with the tweeter blowing. the end of their run this wasn't a problem (not sure of the fix)
I guess it comes down to you out of pocket expense. it sounds like there wont be to much difference in the sound beside the tweet not being as harsh.
before you spend some dollars, try putting a piece of fleece over the tweet at see if that tames it a bit. it sounds dumb, but i have had good success with that mellowing out bright tweeters
I guess it comes down to you out of pocket expense. it sounds like there wont be to much difference in the sound beside the tweet not being as harsh.
before you spend some dollars, try putting a piece of fleece over the tweet at see if that tames it a bit. it sounds dumb, but i have had good success with that mellowing out bright tweeters
my ex-girlfriend said "its car audio or me"
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
Maybe I am confused on the terminology...but would 'harsh' be the correct word/direction for the problems I am having with my tweets?it sounds like there wont be to much difference in the sound beside the tweet not being as harsh.
I will try anything, but I am unclear as to how the fleece would improve off-axis clarity and add high-end sparkle?