Maybe it is an old discussion, but not for me , new here.
I would really appreciate opinions from the Phoenix gold experts.
Here in Italy Phoenix Gold amps are considered like this.
MS series -the best
ZX / Titanium - good but nothing special
Xenon - cheap stuff
RSd -not Phoenix Gold at all
There is a big difference in terms of sound quality between MS and ZX/Titanium series ? Exactly what differences?
Is really Xenon series cheap stuff ? How is the sound ?
Thank you
Phoenix Gold amps rank
This is just my opinion, but I think if I really dug into it I could come up with some proof or facts.
ZPA is the best (built for all out sound quality without compromise)
ZX/Ti is next (most engineering and features built into an SQ oriented amp)
Xenon (Like a Ti with a few different features and much cheaper to manufacture)
MS (simple design, ok reliability, not the best build quality)
M (cheaper version of the MS)
RSd (I have no idea)
No average person will tell the sound difference between a M, MS, ZX, Ti, or even a Xenon. And, I am confident even a trained ear will not hear a difference. Each of those amps uses pretty much the exact same output circuit which would mean you can hear the difference in components if you think you hear a difference at all. Very few people can do this.
ZPA is the best (built for all out sound quality without compromise)
ZX/Ti is next (most engineering and features built into an SQ oriented amp)
Xenon (Like a Ti with a few different features and much cheaper to manufacture)
MS (simple design, ok reliability, not the best build quality)
M (cheaper version of the MS)
RSd (I have no idea)
No average person will tell the sound difference between a M, MS, ZX, Ti, or even a Xenon. And, I am confident even a trained ear will not hear a difference. Each of those amps uses pretty much the exact same output circuit which would mean you can hear the difference in components if you think you hear a difference at all. Very few people can do this.
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my opinion ass well......the rsd i had is pretty decent too, i had a RSD 500.4 and had no issues with the sound quality or power.
on my MB Quart QSC216's i could tell a small amount of diff only in the tweeter brightness between the rsd500.4 , m50 from the outlaw, and my zx475.
the m50 made the harsh tweeter a little softer than the other 2 amps.
on my MB Quart QSC216's i could tell a small amount of diff only in the tweeter brightness between the rsd500.4 , m50 from the outlaw, and my zx475.
the m50 made the harsh tweeter a little softer than the other 2 amps.
That's funny. Where do you guys base this decision?
The RSD amp was designed by the same guy who built the MS amp. Sonically it is supposed to be the closest amplifier to the MS series since the ZPA.
The Xenons are cheap, but that doesn't mean the amplifiers are any worse. In fact, they are one of the most overbuilt amps that PG has ever made.
All of the amplifiers you listed have VERY similar circuit topologies. You would have great difficulty in a true A/B comparison to tell between the amplifiers.
The RSD amp was designed by the same guy who built the MS amp. Sonically it is supposed to be the closest amplifier to the MS series since the ZPA.
The Xenons are cheap, but that doesn't mean the amplifiers are any worse. In fact, they are one of the most overbuilt amps that PG has ever made.
All of the amplifiers you listed have VERY similar circuit topologies. You would have great difficulty in a true A/B comparison to tell between the amplifiers.
The Xenons are not really that overbuilt. That does not make them junk though, just a bit weaker than they could be.
Here is an example…
The X200.4 is rated for 200W x 4 into 4 ohms, so 800 total watts.
The MS2125 is rated for 125W x 2 into 4 ohms, but will do far more. Probably 800W into 2 ohms mono, so lets rate it at 800 total watts for the sake of discussion.
The Xenon has 10 TO-220 power supply MOSFETs, whereas the MS has 8 TO-247 MOSFETs. The current capabilities of the MS are massive compared to that of the Xenon. Next look at the Rectifiers. 2 TO-220 devices on the Xenon, and 4 TO-247 devices on the MS. Again the MS delivers. The area in which the Xenon wins out is the output section. No less than 24 output transistors in TO-247 cases. With the MS you get half, 12 TO-3LP sized.
So, Xenons for example have very impressive output stages, but are a bit weak on the power supply compared to some other models.
Personally, I would take the Xenon though. I prefer an amp with fans, and the MS lacks these.
Here is an example…
The X200.4 is rated for 200W x 4 into 4 ohms, so 800 total watts.
The MS2125 is rated for 125W x 2 into 4 ohms, but will do far more. Probably 800W into 2 ohms mono, so lets rate it at 800 total watts for the sake of discussion.
The Xenon has 10 TO-220 power supply MOSFETs, whereas the MS has 8 TO-247 MOSFETs. The current capabilities of the MS are massive compared to that of the Xenon. Next look at the Rectifiers. 2 TO-220 devices on the Xenon, and 4 TO-247 devices on the MS. Again the MS delivers. The area in which the Xenon wins out is the output section. No less than 24 output transistors in TO-247 cases. With the MS you get half, 12 TO-3LP sized.
So, Xenons for example have very impressive output stages, but are a bit weak on the power supply compared to some other models.
Personally, I would take the Xenon though. I prefer an amp with fans, and the MS lacks these.
You should label the 2125 like the xenon is Eric. For those of us that are not for sure where everything is locatedEric D wrote:The Xenons are not really that overbuilt. That does not make them junk though, just a bit weaker than they could be.
Here is an example…
The X200.4 is rated for 200W x 4 into 4 ohms, so 800 total watts.
The MS2125 is rated for 125W x 2 into 4 ohms, but will do far more. Probably 800W into 2 ohms mono, so lets rate it at 800 total watts for the sake of discussion.
The Xenon has 10 TO-220 power supply MOSFETs, whereas the MS has 8 TO-247 MOSFETs. The current capabilities of the MS are massive compared to that of the Xenon. Next look at the Rectifiers. 2 TO-220 devices on the Xenon, and 4 TO-247 devices on the MS. Again the MS delivers. The area in which the Xenon wins out is the output section. No less than 24 output transistors in TO-247 cases. With the MS you get half, 12 TO-3LP sized.
So, Xenons for example have very impressive output stages, but are a bit weak on the power supply compared to some other models.
Personally, I would take the Xenon though. I prefer an amp with fans, and the MS lacks these.
Just a thought 
It would be nice if the ms/m/mps series had fans built in.
Head Unit: Eclipse CD5000
Amp1: Ti 500.4
Amp2: MPS2500
Crossover: Audiocontrol 6xs
High/Mids: ID CD1-E v1 Horns
Midbass: IDQ 6.5 v2
Subs: IDQ 12 v1
EQ: PG EQ215-X
Amp1: Ti 500.4
Amp2: MPS2500
Crossover: Audiocontrol 6xs
High/Mids: ID CD1-E v1 Horns
Midbass: IDQ 6.5 v2
Subs: IDQ 12 v1
EQ: PG EQ215-X
pg actually made fan shrouds for ALL m and ms/mps amps, just they are rare as hell!soth wrote:It would be nice if the ms/m/mps series had fans built in.
my favourite is the ms2125, more than good sq and a bit more reliable than the zpa
Ti1 headunit (unique)
Outlaw in crate.
2x original shrouded ms2250's.
Route 66 in box + custom m100 to match.
Roadster 66 in flight case
Octane LE in box.
Reactor #186 in flight case.
Reactor EQ232
Ti400.2 AL
AX204A + EQ232 + ZPX2 + TBA set
ZCS6 component set
Tantrum+Titanium bass cubes
Ti12d Elite sub
DD5 + DD10 + 6 Ti blocks!
Outlaw in crate.
2x original shrouded ms2250's.
Route 66 in box + custom m100 to match.
Roadster 66 in flight case
Octane LE in box.
Reactor #186 in flight case.
Reactor EQ232
Ti400.2 AL
AX204A + EQ232 + ZPX2 + TBA set
ZCS6 component set
Tantrum+Titanium bass cubes
Ti12d Elite sub
DD5 + DD10 + 6 Ti blocks!
all the same..if you can hear the difference between any of those amps I want your ears.
Second if you can hear the difference between octane and ms going 50 mph down the road with the amps set for the same amount of output w/o clipping, I want your ears too.
Second if you can hear the difference between octane and ms going 50 mph down the road with the amps set for the same amount of output w/o clipping, I want your ears too.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
Maybe I can fix up some additional diagrams of amp guts so everyone knows what parts are which.
As for ZPAs being dual mono, has anyone confirmed this? I am pretty sure they are indeed dual mono, but I have never fully figured out if one of the two transformers produce different voltages, or if each has its own dual secondary’s for two rail voltages. I would assume the latter is true.
As for ZPAs being dual mono, has anyone confirmed this? I am pretty sure they are indeed dual mono, but I have never fully figured out if one of the two transformers produce different voltages, or if each has its own dual secondary’s for two rail voltages. I would assume the latter is true.
Roland K told me it was, but the transformers a wound together and there are a few ICs that connect the boards. THe Ms he said only has ICs connecting the two side.Eric D wrote:Maybe I can fix up some additional diagrams of amp guts so everyone knows what parts are which.
As for ZPAs being dual mono, has anyone confirmed this? I am pretty sure they are indeed dual mono, but I have never fully figured out if one of the two transformers produce different voltages, or if each has its own dual secondary’s for two rail voltages. I would assume the latter is true.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
On the MS that is sort of true depending on how you look at it.
The 15V positive and negative power supply for the opamps is shared by the amplifier, and comes off of only one side of it.
So, the 3 opamps, and the LM339 comparator share sides of the amp, but the power supply for them is from either the right or left segment.
In my opinion, each side of the amp should have had its own 15V supply, with the only part on the whole amp common to both sides being the LM339.
The 15V positive and negative power supply for the opamps is shared by the amplifier, and comes off of only one side of it.
So, the 3 opamps, and the LM339 comparator share sides of the amp, but the power supply for them is from either the right or left segment.
In my opinion, each side of the amp should have had its own 15V supply, with the only part on the whole amp common to both sides being the LM339.
I just took a closer look at a ZPA, and it is not dual mono after all. All of the power supply items work together, this includes the transformers, caps, MOSFETs, and rectifiers.
If you were to remove one of the power supply transformers, the amp would likely still work just as before, aside from much less current capability due to a loss of half the power supply.
If you were to remove one of the power supply transformers, the amp would likely still work just as before, aside from much less current capability due to a loss of half the power supply.
This can be true, I never experienced a listen between them.But I can assure you I can hear difference between Phoenix gold and Rockford Fosgate, Zapco , Genesis or whatsoever.No average person will tell the sound difference between a M, MS, ZX, Ti, or even a Xenon. And, I am confident even a trained ear will not hear a difference. Each of those amps uses pretty much the exact same output circuit which would mean you can hear the difference in components if you think you hear a difference at all. Very few people can do this.
Average person don't understand if there is or not an amp in your system.
Bet you cant going down the road 34 mphcesri wrote:This can be true, I never experienced a listen between them.But I can assure you I can hear difference between Phoenix gold and Rockford Fosgate, Zapco , Genesis or whatsoever.No average person will tell the sound difference between a M, MS, ZX, Ti, or even a Xenon. And, I am confident even a trained ear will not hear a difference. Each of those amps uses pretty much the exact same output circuit which would mean you can hear the difference in components if you think you hear a difference at all. Very few people can do this.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
Actually he probably can.
Some amplifiers emit a lot of even or odd (I never can remember which it is) distortion, which is hard to notice even in an A/B test, but manifests itself as listening fatigue in a short period of time. This can be with or without road noise mixed in.
For example, after about 10 minutes of listening to my Rockford system, I found myself turning it down, or sometimes even off. I just got sick of listening to it. In the case of my Phoenix Gold installation, I had no problem listening to it the whole way on trips to Detroit, which is about a 3 hour ride.
Both systems were similar power levels, had similar SPL output levels, and were installed the same. When I made the switch from RF to PG, I simply bolted a pair of ZX in place where the Punch amps once were. Instant improvement in the overall enjoyment of my stereo.
Some amplifiers emit a lot of even or odd (I never can remember which it is) distortion, which is hard to notice even in an A/B test, but manifests itself as listening fatigue in a short period of time. This can be with or without road noise mixed in.
For example, after about 10 minutes of listening to my Rockford system, I found myself turning it down, or sometimes even off. I just got sick of listening to it. In the case of my Phoenix Gold installation, I had no problem listening to it the whole way on trips to Detroit, which is about a 3 hour ride.
Both systems were similar power levels, had similar SPL output levels, and were installed the same. When I made the switch from RF to PG, I simply bolted a pair of ZX in place where the Punch amps once were. Instant improvement in the overall enjoyment of my stereo.