Midtones or not?

[SCHAFRANEK]

What's the best setup to get the best SQ?

1) a set of compos in front, two subs in the trunk and a pair of midtones in the back.

2) Same as above but midtones in the kickpanels.

Any PG midtones 6,5" or 5,25" you'll recommend??

-or...should I totally leave out the midtones and use a set of coax instead?

-thanks-

[Bfowler]

keep the mids up front.

you actually want to keep as much sound as possable up front. however its often not possable to put a sub up front. and tones below 60hz are non-directional anyway.

the PG RSD 6's are awesome midbass speakers

[SCHAFRANEK]

Would it be even better to have a set of coax in the frontdoors and then a composet in the kickpanels?

[Bfowler]

IMO multimple speakers handaling high frequencys never results in good sound.

i would put a comp set in the kicks, and then a midbass in the doors.

[SCHAFRANEK]

I only got space for 4" in the doors, unfortunately

[stipud]

The best possible setup would be two speakers playing full range with equal path lengths. Since this is ridiculously difficult to achieve in a car, we will need more speakers.

Typically bass cannot be located above 60Hz, this is why the trunk is suitable for a subwoofer install... because there is more room back there, and if it's crossed over low enough, you probably won't be able to hear where it is coming from.

Now for your front stage... you want to keep the path lengths as equal as possible. This is why many people use kickpanels, as they put them further forwards in the car, and make the difference between distances to the speaker as small as possible. This makes them image better. Now the catch is finding a set of speakers that can play 60Hz up to 20kHz. This is traditionally very difficult, as many component sets have less output below 200Hz, especially when not installed properly. Also, cone speakers aren't usually very good at playing treble, so we have to add a tweeter in here as well.

So you either need to come up with a way to get your speakers to play that deep by enclosing them somehow, or you may need to add midbass drivers. The need depends on your choice of drivers up front, and your willingness to raise the subwoofer crossover frequency.

So yeah, it's a difficult to say what is best. A set of RSD 6.5's can play to 60Hz relatively well in a proper enclosure in your kickpanel, so in this case adding midbass would not be necessary. However, if you had a different set that doesn't produce much midbass, then you may need to add other drivers to fill in the gap between your sub and mids, or raise your sub crossover.

Now if the point is getting everything to sound like it is coming from the front, there is no point in installing midbass in the rear. If you want it to sound like that, you might as well turn up the crossover on the subwoofer so that it plays midbass as well, because it will sound pretty much the same. So now you want to locate your mid, tweeter, midbass as close as possible together.

A good way to do this is by mounting the midbass in the front doors, and the midrange and tweeter in the kickpanels. Whether or not this works for your car is also a difficult decision, as some doorpanels aren't deep enough to support a midbass. Also, then you definitely need to start looking at things like sound deadening, etc, to properly seal off the midbass..


I could go on and on forever. My whole point is, you just want to simulate two point sources in front of you as much as you can. How much you flex between the ideal setup and a realistic one is up to your money, imagination, and time.

[SCHAFRANEK]

stipud > Thanks. A lot of info but it definately made me come a step closer.

The speakers are as follows:

Mids: Rainbow W 165 Vanadium. (6,5")

Compo: Rainbow SLX210 Deluxe.

As stated above there's a minimum of space in the frontdoors. Max. 4" and aprrox. 50mm (2") of depth. The Rainbows fits that (51mm) and I like the sound of them.
It is rather difficult to find a set of PG 4" compos in Denmark...

[SCHAFRANEK]

-oh...by the way...I will definately go for the midtones up front now.

Will it make sense accordingly to SQ to mount the tweeters and midtones in the kickpanel or should I place the tweeters on top of the dash as originally planned?

[Bfowler]

i would try and keep the tweeters low if possible. the glass from the windshield wont add anything good to the sound of the tweets

[stipud]

If you have a 6.5, 4 and tweeter, and you can only fit the 4 in the door, then I would keep the 6.5 in the kickpanel, where it can image and give you the "stereo bass" image that a subwoofer can't do. Now you can either put the tweeter in the kickpanel with the midbass, or put it next to the mid, or on your dash... try it in all places and pick your favorite.

[Bfowler]

If you have a 6.5, 4 and tweeter, and you can only fit the 4 in the door, then I would keep the 6.5 in the kickpanel, where it can image and give you the "stereo bass" image that a subwoofer can't do. Now you can either put the tweeter in the kickpanel with the midbass, or put it next to the mid, or on your dash... try it in all places and pick your favorite.

yes!

[cesri]

The best way for SQ:

Separate comps:

Midbass 6 midwoofer - door ,with proper installiation

Mid 4 - dashboard

Tweeter - A pillar

Source with digital delay

-forget about Coax

-Kick panel very diffcult to set up and not possible in all the cars

- Rsd inappropriate for Sound Quality, look for Morel, Boston and similar

[stipud]

Midbass 6 midwoofer - door ,with proper installiation

He does not have room in the door for a 6.

Mid 4 - dashboard

Tweeter - A pillar

This is probably not a good idea. The windows cause very bad reflections, which can heavily reduce imaging and make your high end sound bright and harsh. Done properly tweeters can sound good in A-pillars, but you would have to consider treating the dash and other areas to reduce these reflections.

Source with digital delay

Delay is no replacement for equalizing your path lengths. If your speakers are equal distances apart, there is no need for signal delay, as the sound will reach your ears at the same time.

forget about Coax

Again, I disagree here too. In SQ you want to create two discernible images... right and left. The best way to do this is to have all of your sound coming from one location. Coaxials mount the tweeter over the midrange, so this is technically ideal. The problem is, that coaxials sometimes use cheaper crossovers or tweeters to get the job done. However, the RSD coaxials for example use the same tweeter. You could technically use the crossover from the RSD components and have the exact same sound coming from one point source. This would be ideal!

Kick panel very diffcult to set up and not possible in all the cars

You were just recommending cutting holes in the dash, or putting big holes in the door. In my experience installing a kickpanel has been much easier, and the benefit is if you want to remove the kickpanels your car is undamaged! If you have holes in your dash you have to replace it. Not good.

Rsd inappropriate for Sound Quality, look for Morel, Boston and similar

I am getting tired of this. Every single post you make says that RSD and Xenon lines have no sound quality... yet you probably haven't heard them installed yet? The RSD line of speakers is probably the best drop-in speakers I have heard. With sound treatments and double or triple the budget, there are better speakers, but you can't beat their bang-for-the-buck performance.

Not to mention this thread isn't even about RSDs, so I don't get why you're bringing it up. SCHAFRANEK has Rainbow components, which are likely better than the Morel or Boston speakers you suggested.

[cesri]

This is probably not a good idea. The windows cause very bad reflections, which can heavily reduce imaging and make your high end sound bright and harsh. Done properly tweeters can sound good in A-pillars, but you would have to consider treating the dash and other areas to reduce these reflections.

mid and midbass on the door is better ? with the mid slammed up and down ?
you live in holland, don't you? Look at the SQ competition in Europe,all the champions have mids on the dashboard.

Delay is no replacement for equalizing your path lengths. If your speakers are equal distances apart, there is no need for signal delay, as the sound will reach your ears at the same time.

Generally the steering wheel is on the left or right side of the car, and people generally seat in one or in the other side of the car.
Maybe your car is different and the steering wheel is in the middle.

Again, I disagree here too. In SQ you want to create two discernible images... right and left. The best way to do this is to have all of your sound coming from one location. Coaxials mount the tweeter over the midrange, so this is technically ideal. The problem is, that coaxials sometimes use cheaper crossovers or tweeters to get the job done. However, the RSD coaxials for example use the same tweeter. You could technically use the crossover from the RSD components and have the exact same sound coming from one point source. This would be ideal!

This is true for home loudspeakers but generally coax are cheap .

I am getting tired of this. Every single post you make says that RSD and Xenon lines have no sound quality... yet you probably haven't heard them installed yet? The RSD line of speakers is probably the best drop-in speakers I have heard. With sound treatments and double or triple the budget, there are better speakers, but you can't beat their bang-for-the-buck performance.

Sorry but I can see from how they are made they cheap.Phoenix Gold is now Rodin Audio or not ?

Not to mention this thread isn't even about RSDs, so I don't get why you're bringing it up. SCHAFRANEK has Rainbow components, which are likely better than the Morel or Boston speakers you suggested.

Likely better or for sure ? Rainbow better than Morel ? Are you joking ?

[stipud]

mid and midbass on the door is better ? with the mid slammed up and down ?
you live in holland, don't you? Look at the SQ competition in Europe,all the champions have mids on the dashboard.

As I said above, one of the optimal places for mids are in the kickpanel, because they are the farthest point forward in your cabin. I was not suggesting installing mids in the door next to the midbass. However, time alignment makes that possible as well. If the install was done properly, your mid wouldn't be "slammed up and down" from the midbass either. There are many competitors that use stock locations to win competitions as well.

My point is that equal path lengths are ideal, and this is why kickpanels are good for installs. However, I agree that kickpanels don't work for everyone, because some cars are very challenging to install in. On the other hand, your suggestion of the dash has a lot more challenges as well. The SQ champion cars you are talking about had a lot of work put in to make the dash locations work properly. It is not as easy as cutting holes in your dash and installing a speaker.

And while many people are winning SQ competitions with dash speakers, there are many other people doing it with kickpanels, and others doing it with stock locations. All that matters is that you do your install properly. There is no perfect installation that works on all cars all the time, you have to choose what is right for you.

Generally the steering wheel is on the left or right side of the car, and people generally seat in one or in the other side of the car.
Maybe your car is different and the steering wheel is in the middle.

Do you disagree with my point that kickpanels would have more equal path lengths than the dash? Try it in your own car. Get a measuring tape and measure from your kickpanels to your ears. Compare the distances, and figure out what percentage the short path length is compared to the long one. Now measure to the corners of the dash, and compare the distances.

Since the kickpanels are further away, the path lengths are closer, and there is less need for time alignment.

This is true for home loudspeakers but generally coax are cheap .

Generally speaking cheap speakers are cheap, this isn't just coaxials. A high grade coax is just as good as a high grade component set. My example with the RSD speakers holds true... the mid and tweeter are the same, the only difference is the crossover. There are also a few other brands that offer coaxials with a nice external crossover, or the ability to mount a component set as a coaxial. So in this case we have a very expensive top of the line coaxial which is in every way the same as a component set, but has the tweeter mounted in an ideal location, as it has zero phasing issues between the tweet and the mid. Do you really think that this automatically sounds worse, just because it is a coaxial?

Sorry but I can see from how they are made they cheap.Phoenix Gold is now Rodin Audio or not ?

Yes, they ARE cheap. You seem to have this idea that cheap = bad. That is not necessarily true, because in this case the cheap stuff is the same as the old expensive stuff. The RSD amplifiers have the same guts as the MS amps, and the RSD speakers are rated better than many products at much higher prices. There are better speakers than the RSDs, they just cost a LOT more. I probably wouldn't use them for an SQ competition car, but they are in my opinion the best drop in speakers on the market right now.

Likely better or for sure ? Rainbow better than Morel ? Are you joking ?

There are many companies that are better or worse than Morel. Typically Morel makes a very colored sound that is nice to listen to (I know, because I run Morel speakers), but they are not known for being very accurate.

Prove to me that Morel is better than Rainbow. Or is this just your opinion? What is it that makes Morel better?

[SCHAFRANEK]

I was told at an audio store that placing the tweeters on top of the dash is a good solution because the windshield reflects the sound which means it (SQ) all comes down to where on the dash they are placed.

I'm having difficulties finding place in the kickpanel for any speaker at all. But that's not the same as saying it is impossible

I have to admit that Rainbow is what I am planning to buy so I can still change the setup. The reason I chose Rainbow is because they are the speakers so far that sounds the best in my opinion. I know there are as many opinions out there as speakers so I have decided to go entirely for what I think sounds the best to me IRL. I'm still keen on the PG series but I just haven't had the opportunity to listen to them in a car, showroom etc.

If you guys are still interested I will post some photos during the weekend to show what the options are in my beloved old Volvo

[brenzbmr@sb]

my advise is as follows



since it sounds like you own a volvo that has the four inch speakers in the door up high i wouldnt even think of that as a good location

i see alot of european cars(sq cars) using the the tweet and mid in the a piller and the midbass mounted in the door or kick,

ask your self this

are you gonna compete or do you want this to just sound"good"

your choice of rainbows are okay, if your happppy with the sound then dont worry about buying anything else, also if it were my car i would
probably tell you to mount the midbass in the door if possible and put the mid and tweeter in the kick panel.

why? well your door will give you decent midbass if deadened and sealed properly. wont cost too much just time and some deadning material and some patients.
putting the mid and tweet in the kick panel area will minimize your pathlengths far better then mounting them on the dash or piller. also i would advise keeping that mid and tweeter as close as possible. build a kick panel and mount the tweet over the mid..(idea ive done a couple of times)

i think this would be a simple set up that will give you a centeral sence of orgin and still have good imaging. you may have a sence of it sounding
"low" in location but again i dont think its that crucial.

since i dont know how much room you have to work with in the door
botttom portion may require cutting the metal and building a door pod
to space out the midbass from hittting anything in the door.

same with kick area, dont know howmuch there is to work with.

good luck
and feel free to ask us for any ideas or advise

[Bfowler]

- Rsd inappropriate for Sound Quality, look for Morel, Boston and similar

here's an interesting fact: the Phoenix Gold Ti Elite Tweeter was designed and built by Morel.

The RSD tweeter is a 25mm version of THE SAME tweeter (the TI Elite tweeter was a 28mm). Same materials, same design.

so to say the RSD is inappropriate for sound quality but the morel is seems to contradict itself