Top SQ USA legacy PG amps vs. Xenon

[epcenter5hz]

[/quote]Let me put it this way, if old school was clearly better sounding, then SQ would be dominated by old amps, clearly that's not the case.[/quote]

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I will have 2 disagree with u on that…
People may be like me, & I don’t want a bunch of used equipment N their car that cost way more than some fine newer stuff…

The only person I would buy vintage audio from is Dr. fosgate…

But I’m not totally saying that this new stuff isn’t as good as the old school stuff…

My post says that I think that the phoenix gold xenon sounds as good as anything that Phoenix gold has ever made at any time.

& some of the new stuff has a lot of new technological features that I like…
But with the cookie cutter brands, it will usually come @ a trade off…

All I was saying earlier is I’m from the era that the early to mid nineties stuff is all I know…

U say that the new stuff sounds as good as the old school stuff… the only differences u say now is the price… besides the fact that USA made amps cost more to produce because of generous employee payrolls… take that away with now building them over sea’s & paying production salaries less than a few dollars an hour…

But that’s not 100% what makes them more affordable… they gotta be cutting some additional corners that remains a company secret… to get u to trust an American brand name that built its reputation, of not doing such practices to remain in business.

Some people can really pick up on that… and not be ruled out that his mind played tricks on him or how he thinks it sounds…

From what I think you’re saying, most of this new stuff is acceptable for the average consumer… but I’m far from an average consumer, I’m a purest/audiophile person.
I need the most SQ for my money, & not just good enough for a budget consumer to buy …

[bdubs767]

xenon is a hell of an amp...it's no cookie cutter design. To bad they had the failures at first, otherwise PG probably wouldn't have gone down the shitter. Those monsters have plenty of headroom, the x200.4 is one of my favorite amps of all time, and to be honest I probably prefer it to the ms1000 I have. Makes almost the same power in stereo mode, has the extra power out put for a cap, and the FAN so it can be installed any where.

[epcenter5hz]

Yea i agree with u on that…

In some of my inventory…
I have (2) phoenix Gold Xenon X200.4’s
(1) Phoenix Gold Sapphire SA1.0
(1) Phoenix Gold RSD 300/4
& (2) Arc Audio FD 1200.1’s
Just to name a few, but my favorite class A/B of all that I own is the X200.4

[brenzbmr@sb]

hey stewart, yeah one of my installers back in the day did that to a zpa 0.5 on 3 jl 15w6 ported

scared the crap out of him

[OldSchoolFool]

please don't compare Ryval to Octane, two different beasts. Ryval actually makes the power it advertises, and blue LEDs don't add anything to the sound quality so there are none on it.

[Bfowler]

how is the ryval's circuitry different?

the octanes didn't make their advertised rms?

[OldSchoolFool]

For one they are made in different countries. Octane is Korean.

Physically the main difference is the sheer amount of "toughening" put into Ryval. Vibe testing, shock testing, all the lessons learned from fixing your own units in your own factory. No more broken transformers and fatigue failures, at least not at nearly the same rate. Look inside any Ryval and you will see plenty of mechanical hard points and rubber shock absorbers. Besides, Ryval amps don't have "tuner" look you guys hate. No superfluous parts, carbon hardened badges, extra blue lights, etc. Just pure power at a reasonable price.

Electrically Ryval is superior as well. Better components and circuits. Not to mention the amps make way more power. Compare a Octane 800.1 with Ryval 800.1.

[fuzzysnuggleduck]

For one they are made in different countries. Octane is Korean.

I was under the impression all Xenon and post-Xenon PG amps were made in Korea... that's not the case?

[1moreamp]

To get back to the original question asked, the ZPA line is the best PG has ever engineered from a sound quality point of view (and it makes a nice arc weilding rig). The trade-off of course, was cost.

When discussing sound quality, phase response through the amplifier should be concidered- from a sound quality perspective, it is every bit as important as distortion and headroom. Many of the newer designs sacrifice stability (by adding more negative feedback) for phase response. Typically, a good design will have less negative feedback and little phase shift from input to output in the audible frequency range, while retaining stability into lower impedance reactive and capacitive loads. This is why PG uses dual differential error amplifiers in the first stage of the amplifier, as well as triple darlington output stages and little negative feedback. This increases the cost of the overall design, and is very hard to compensate for instability- but once it is done, it is worth it.

It is also worth noting that the ZPA had no op-amps in the audio portion of the circuitry, and was direct coupled- careful hooking up those RCA jacks with the power on!

Thank you Stewart, You have renewed my faith in my ownership of 3 each ZPA 0.5's.
So many people have spoken so badly about them lately, I was beginning to get bummed out, by all the bad rap others have about them. I saw what PG put into these from a purely engineering point of view long ago. that is why I bought them.

I knew in my mind I would never see this sort fine engineering in a car amplifier as long as I live, both then and even now. Thanks to your kind and truthful words about these unique and very special amplifiers, I am now again full of smiles, and worry not about those that were not successful in integrating one the worlds finest amps ever built into they lifestyle. < IMO>

Agreed they are not for everyone, especially the overzealous SPl gotta have every watt for unlimited duration crowd. these were purest SQ max design amplifiers with huge headroom and unbelievable power output capacity < just not on a constant basis, like most bass heads want >

I purchased mine to be used in a pure SQ setup and 2 ZPA0.5s just for the four corners nothing else. A third was a spare, just in case I got stupid.
Just about any amp will work for sub bass, so I never actually selected anything to run underneath these ZPA's I got. As someone else said earlier any Chinese factory can turn out a kilo watt class D amp. And may I add, But only a fine company like PG would ever build a classic SQ machine like my beloved ZPA's < again IMO>

Thank You !...C


PS. I also own 2 Xenon 200.4's and just love them. Thanks again for a super amp at reasonable price.

My opinions are based solely on my engineering background and the fact I have seen just about every car amp ever made in any number over the last 25 years on my bench usually failed in some sort of way or another. Your opinions may vary along with your mileage...

[marko]

it's time we had a full on test review of the old pg amps, i'm gonna try and organise something over here at some point, i have all m series amps and ms amps to play with and i can get my hands on a zpa0.5 easy enough, i could chuck a ppi art 200.2 in just for referance as this has one of the most natural mid responces i've ever heard!

what do you guys think?

[willinghamd]

Go for it!!!

[epcenter5hz]

what's the deal with this...


http://www.rodinaudio.com/


& who in the h@ll is "Rodin Audio"???

[Bfowler]

the investment group that bought PG when they were leaking money like a sive.

so now we have rodin audio: who's car audio line is PG and home audio line is audiosource.

[epcenter5hz]

the investment group that bought PG when they were leaking money like a sive.

so now we have rodin audio: who's car audio line is PG and home audio line is audiosource.

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so do u think future rodin audio car audio products will continue the same phoenix gold sound quality ?

And what was the 1st amp produced when rodin audio had their hands in phoenix gold's company ?

[OldSchoolFool]

uh, it's called Roadster66.
And subs to go with: RSdC

By far the best PG has had to offer in years.

[Bfowler]

uh, it's called Roadster66.
And subs to go with: RSdC

By far the best PG has had to offer in years.

I can honestly say PG is back on the right track with their gear. they are making huge steps to making quality gear that people want.

if they add a new high end line of amps, speakers to complement the RSDc, and some marketing and PG can be back in the game

[mr tibbs]

uh, it's called Roadster66.
And subs to go with: RSdC

By far the best PG has had to offer in years.

I can honestly say PG is back on the right track with their gear. they are making huge steps to making quality gear that people want.

if they add a new high end line of amps, speakers to complement the RSD, and some marketing and PG can be back in the game

Don't forget what they are lacking right now, accessories!!!!!!!!

[Bfowler]

yeah. i can't tell if they are phasing them out all together or if they really just suck that much...but damn

[RATIFIED]

PG needs to get a high end line out first way before messing with anything else. Get the word out and the Phoenix will be reborn!!

[OldSchoolFool]

CES2008 is right around the corner, wink wink, nudge nudge

[RATIFIED]

What are ya saying? Need to wait before buying any new amps?

[bdubs767]

CES2008 is right around the corner, wink wink, nudge nudge

BS...lets see some hard evidence. Ive heard rumors for 3 years of a high end line in the works, but nothing.

[Bfowler]

True^

also...the RSDc was shown at CES and didnt come out for a year after....
not getting too excited yet

[eyesofra]

hopefully we get to see more prototypes in CES....they kept the promise with rsdC subs so looks like they're gettin back in the game...slowly though

[epcenter5hz]

http://www.phoenixgold.com/productDetai ... tegoryID=1