so what is the ryval speaker line....

[smgreen20]

They have a marketing department??!!

Yea, it's that guy in the Lord of the Rings, in the mines of Moria that was dust and bone.

[smgreen20]

out the box the zaps walk all over the pg line...i wont even get into comparing them because pg is not building their amps to compete in that world....if they did then maybe i would be able to throw something against the 4x,9x or 4kw....the only things that would even come close to that are the old ms builds....thats why i was just asking the question about if pg was going to try and take their spot back or something..

That's the thing though... you have to tell us why they "walk all over PG", because currently all you are doing is speculating and providing your own personal opinion. Saying WHY is the most important part of an argument; otherwise you will never sway anyone to believe your side. You could say something subjective like "it sounds better to me", or something more objective like "it has more rail capacitance", but so far you have offered neither.

Come on Tom, you should know by now, Price determines if it's superior.

[VW337]

TheBurb:

I would like to first note that yes I worked for PG during the development of both RSd and Ryval, I have heard both I provided my input on both during the development. I no longer work for the "Machine". I was hired by PG after putting in ~13 years in the install bay.


The Ryval line is not based at all on the Octane line it is based off of several engineering points gained through out the years, and was built from the ground up as was the RSd line. The two products share similar manufacturing and testing processes, but for the most part are nothing alike other than the general color and brand labels.

Ryval is a great product at a price anybody can afford. The amps are very powerful exceeding the specs across the board that they claim. They are user and installer friendly. The Speakers feature all the technology that could be brought over from the RSd line while remaining cost effective. The materials used were not based on popular demand or market but more on function, most notably the composite and pulp cones used across the board. Pulp is known internationally as a very musical media used in speaker manufacturing, additionally it provides low cost and is very light adding to the efficiency of the drivers. Add to that polymer tweeters though not highly sought after these are the most linear tweeter I have ever seen or heard using a plastic dome. The subs are absolutely amazing for the price they are not going to win any product of the year awards nor are they aimed to that, but they are very musical with a subtle roll off (free air) starting IIRC in the 60hz region and -3db in the 40's, the subs are exceptionally efficient and take very little power to get serious output levels. Probably dollar for dollar, watt for watt the best sub you could buy for SQ/SPL competition purposes. I am not saying they are up to the level of other brands/products on the market but I am saying if I were competing in the lower power classes I would choose these subs over anything else on the market.


I too love the MS amps, I too am from the Old days when names like PG, Zapco, MMATS, Rodek, Soudstream, PPI, Linear Power were the sought after names in competition. Sadly things change. I have installed the Zapco lines currently on the market and I can tell you yes they sound good once you get the musical floor higher than the noise floor. I have never experienced noise remotely near that of a Zapco running the symbilink system. I pulled an amp from a vehicle that the owner decided to upgrade from a small amp to a bigger amp and Zapco was the only chassis which fit in the power range needed. It was a direct swap out, in fact the Sybilink was run side by side with the rca's before pulling them. Fired the system up and the noise was unbearable, and took nearly 4 hours of testing, adjusting, etc... to get to a near inaudible level. I can say from a user stand point my money is better spent on PG gear, from an installer point I can say my time is more profitable installing PG, from a consumer standpoint PG is more available and offers greater flexibility for upgradablilty without a proprietary cable being involved that is 100% marketing and offers nothing above what a properly designed input section and proper adjustment provides. From a competitor stand point Zapco is the better option as the system design is more sanitary for the install and if the system is dropped in all at one time there is no signal compatibility issues or special cabling needing to be re-run additionally they have a higher powered amp for SPL purpose which could be offset by multiples if SPL was the purpose.



I ask as Stipud has asked please give a reason why you make your blanket statements. Fact or fiction is it marketing, cosmetics, or being close-minded to the fact that engineering processes have not stopped progressing since the 90's?

[stipud]

Really, the Ryval is a new design? Do you have any pictures of the guts? This is the kind of stuff that PG should be telling us!!

Reminds me of the whole RSD = Tantrum debacle we had when that series came out. If PG really needs to do anything better, it's being more transparent. Tell us what's new and why... there are lots of fans on this board and elsewhere, who want to know the gory details of what makes PG amps so special. If all you can do is tell us the rated power and S/N ratio, we are not going to be immediately impressed! Because as you guys well know, there is much more to an amplifier than the numbers on the box.

[VW337]

Sadly I had asked for some specifics so I could do the white papers, I was in the process of across the board manufacturer/product comparisons at the date of being canned.

[theburb]

Come on Tom, you should know by now, Price determines if it's superior.

come on now miss me with that bullshit...i was helping to build pg spl battle cars when the company first came into the market....when the rest of the nation didnt even know what the fuck phoenix gold was...

im not downing the pg legacy i am just talking about the here and now.....i wont get into a spec for spec diagraphical debate over the c2k and the rsd lines because there is nothing that will ever show me that the rsd is the superior amp..

unless pg has done a complete 180 and abandoned their class t builds then i know they are very similar amps sonically and thats a good thing....but where pg stops their line thats just right at the spot where the zap amps really start to shine....its nothing against pg i know its all biz and the orders come from up above.

but why didnt they stick to the bread and butter that made them who they are....i would love to see a 2 chan triple d amp that specs out like the zap 9x

even if they were just scratch build betas made just for some sound off runs....i think that would just do wonders for the company and then people would stop and take notice of them again.....thats all im saying

[rolandk]

im not downing the pg legacy i am just talking about the here and now.....i wont get into a spec for spec diagraphical debate over the c2k and the rsd lines because there is nothing that will ever show me that the rsd is the superior amp..

unless pg has done a complete 180 and abandoned their class t builds then i know they are very similar amps sonically and thats a good thing....but where pg stops their line thats just right at the spot where the zap amps really start to shine....its nothing against pg i know its all biz and the orders come from up above.

but why didnt they stick to the bread and butter that made them who they are....i would love to see a 2 chan triple d amp that specs out like the zap 9x

even if they were just scratch build betas made just for some sound off runs....i think that would just do wonders for the company and then people would stop and take notice of them again.....thats all im saying

I'm with you in spirit (as well as probably everyone else on here) but the fact is the world has changed dramatically in the last 10 years and the market for high end car amplifiers has all but disappeared. PG has had no choice but to adapt or go out of business.

[Bfowler]

come on now miss me with that bullshit...i was helping to build pg spl battle cars when the company first came into the market....when the rest of the nation didnt even know what the fuck phoenix gold was...

im not downing the pg legacy i am just talking about the here and now.....i wont get into a spec for spec diagraphical debate over the c2k and the rsd lines because there is nothing that will ever show me that the rsd is the superior amp..

unless pg has done a complete 180 and abandoned their class t builds then i know they are very similar amps sonically and thats a good thing....but where pg stops their line thats just right at the spot where the zap amps really start to shine....its nothing against pg i know its all biz and the orders come from up above.

but why didnt they stick to the bread and butter that made them who they are....i would love to see a 2 chan triple d amp that specs out like the zap 9x

even if they were just scratch build betas made just for some sound off runs....i think that would just do wonders for the company and then people would stop and take notice of them again.....thats all im saying

i'm not questioning your experience...

as for the tripaths, which aren't used anymore and were only ever used in one car amp...these are the sort of "oops's" that have to be gone through to come up with great unique ideas...they have to strey from conventional thinking once in a while

the c2k and the rsd lines because there is nothing that will ever show me that the rsd is the superior amp..

we never claimed the rsd was superior..we just asked why the C2k is better?

even if they were just scratch build betas made just for some sound off runs....i think that would just do wonders for the company and then people would stop and take notice of them again.....that's all im saying

i like this idea. lots. goes back to the whole marketing fuck-tards thing.


so to take this in another direction PG ryval VS Zapco i-force....which and why?

[VW337]

so I have yet to see a really thought out post explaining why Zapco is better than PG, have I missed something?

[Bfowler]

so I have yet to see a really thought out post explaining why Zapco is better than PG, have I missed something?

nope, you didnt miss anything...that was never addressed

from looking a the zapco site, i see a few things...

(from the 6.0x)

A: "w/1% resistors" not sure if PG does this or not...but at least it sounds good..

B: "Four layer PC board with heavy 2oz copper" again, no idea if PG has/does this...sounds like a high end material

C: twin fan cooled

thats the only thing i see it having (potentially for the first 2) over the RSD1200.1

other then the fact that its at least 3 times more expensive...(full msrp for each)[/code][/quote]

[VW337]

IIRC the RSd line is 1% resistors

There is no need for a 4 layer board unless they are trying to cram a sophisticated digital processing network into a tiny area. 2oz copper....no clue.

Twin fan cooled, only needed if the proper thermal handling of the chassis was not thought out to begin with or if they are trying to cut cost on material or if they want to condense the overall chassis dimensions.

[theburb]

so I have yet to see a really thought out post explaining why Zapco is better than PG, have I missed something?

hey if you work for pg kudos....but with that aside i mentioned earlier that i wasnt going to get into a circuit by circuit argument on why the c2k line is superior it just is....i also talked about how pg makes good amps but right at the point where they peak out thats where zap really and truly shines.

honestly is there anything seriously that needs to be said as to why zap is better then pg in that area when they are one of the only ones on this field playing for keeps...i wont even throw in all the countless modern day car audio champions that have all been zap powered..

4x
4 ohms 4 x 100 Watts
2 ohms 4 x 150 Watts
2 ohms 2 x 300 Watts

9x
4 ohms 2 x 300 Watts
2 ohms 2 x 600 Watts
1 ohms 2 x 1100 Watts
4 ohms 1 x 2200 Watts
2 ohms 1 x 2200 Watts

4kw
4 ohms 4 x 300 Watts
2 ohms 4 x 600 Watts
4 ohms 2 x 2200 Watts
2 ohms 2 x 2200 Watts

[VW337]

so your argument is only inclusive of power ratings?

What about subjective listening?
What about actual test numbers?
What about $per watt?
What about usage?
What about installation experience?
What about......?


If your only talking the wattage game then you might wish to look at RF as they seem to be the big # leader............

[Bfowler]

i can see what their power ratings are on the website...this thread went no where pretty fast.

using the logic you just used hifonics amps are better then zapco's

[stipud]

hey if you work for pg kudos....but with that aside i mentioned earlier that i wasnt going to get into a circuit by circuit argument on why the c2k line is superior it just is....i also talked about how pg makes good amps but right at the point where they peak out thats where zap really and truly shines.

honestly is there anything seriously that needs to be said as to why zap is better then pg in that area when they are one of the only ones on this field playing for keeps...i wont even throw in all the countless modern day car audio champions that have all been zap powered..

Sorry man, "it just is" is not a valid argument, and you're going to have to do better than that to convince anyone. It's NOT true that Zapco is better than PG, or any other brand, unless you can demonstrate why it is better.

When comparing amplifier designs, saying "it's just better", is not an argument that holds water. If you compare similar models of amplifiers, the PG amps have almost everything that the Zapcos have (and vice versa). They are both very similar amps based on the same fundamental designs -- triple darlington, tight tolerances, and quality parts.

Here is a proper Zapco/PG review:
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

The only thing I see that Zapco offers, which PG does not, is amplifiers in the 2000+ watt range. Does that mean that PG amplifiers are technically inferior? NO. This is a completely different argument, which backs up your point about having big competition grade amplifiers.

This is what you should be doing... state an argument, and then pull out something to back it up. For example:

"Zapco is better than PG, because they realize that being seen in the competition circuits is important to promote their brand image. Because of this they have produced some insanely large amplifiers, like the 4kw, which is capable of producing over 4000 watts."

And in this case, I would agree with you completely. I think PG needs to be making some esoteric amplifiers just for these car shows. Show off stuff that the customer can't even buy. Like the MPH10k! I know it's difficult for PG to justify the costs in making these one-off amplifiers, because you never directly see the results of doing so directly. I understand why they would not build one now, because they are in a transitional phase and need to cover their bottom line costs before they can afford to "play around".

However, when people see what kinds of stuff you are capable of doing, with these big crazy amplifiers and balls-to-the-wall showcars, this in turn drives interest in your brand... especially with the die-hard fans like us. And while we aren't your #1 customers, guess who tells the newbs what amps to buy? Newbs check out reviews, and come to forums all the time. If you can put PG in the mouths of the people who will be talking to these Newbs, you have also made your product more visible.

Instead what we get now are people who used to love the PG competition image like you, who think the brand has gone downhill, because it doesn't get any competition exposure anymore.

So we can totally agree on the point that PG is lacking competition grade amplifiers. However, I fully disagree with you that Zapco amplifiers are significantly better than their PG counterparts, unless you can prove otherwise

[theburb]

i can see what their power ratings are on the website...this thread went no where pretty fast.

using the logic you just used hifonics amps are better then zapco's

come on man we all have common sense here and i would like to think that you know exactly what im talking about....im not just throwing bullshit numbers and brands out there to debate....i was just asking why pg totally gave up on the market that was the bread and butter.

[theburb]

hey if you work for pg kudos....but with that aside i mentioned earlier that i wasnt going to get into a circuit by circuit argument on why the c2k line is superior it just is....i also talked about how pg makes good amps but right at the point where they peak out thats where zap really and truly shines.

honestly is there anything seriously that needs to be said as to why zap is better then pg in that area when they are one of the only ones on this field playing for keeps...i wont even throw in all the countless modern day car audio champions that have all been zap powered..

Sorry man, "it just is" is not a valid argument, and you're going to have to do better than that to convince anyone. It's NOT true that Zapco is better than PG, or any other brand, unless you can demonstrate why it is better.

When comparing amplifier designs, saying "it's just better", is not an argument that holds water. If you compare similar models of amplifiers, the PG amps have almost everything that the Zapcos have (and vice versa). They are both very similar amps based on the same fundamental designs -- triple darlington, tight tolerances, and quality parts.

Here is a proper Zapco/PG review:
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

The only thing I see that Zapco offers, which PG does not, is amplifiers in the 2000+ watt range. Does that mean that PG amplifiers are technically inferior? NO. This is a completely different argument, which backs up your point about having big competition grade amplifiers.

This is what you should be doing... state an argument, and then pull out something to back it up. For example:

"Zapco is better than PG, because they realize that being seen in the competition circuits is important to promote their brand image. Because of this they have produced some insanely large amplifiers, like the 4kw, which is capable of producing over 4000 watts."

And in this case, I would agree with you completely. I think PG needs to be making some esoteric amplifiers just for these car shows. Show off stuff that the customer can't even buy. Like the MPH10k! I know it's difficult for PG to justify the costs in making these one-off amplifiers, because you never directly see the results of doing so directly. I understand why they would not build one now, because they are in a transitional phase and need to cover their bottom line costs before they can afford to "play around".

However, when people see what kinds of stuff you are capable of doing, with these big crazy amplifiers and balls-to-the-wall showcars, this in turn drives interest in your brand... especially with the die-hard fans like us. And while we aren't your #1 customers, guess who tells the newbs what amps to buy? Newbs check out reviews, and come to forums all the time. If you can put PG in the mouths of the people who will be talking to these Newbs, you have also made your product more visible.

Instead what we get now are people who used to love the PG competition image like you, who think the brand has gone downhill, because it doesn't get any competition exposure anymore.

So we can totally agree on the point that PG is lacking competition grade amplifiers. However, I fully disagree with you that Zapco amplifiers are significantly better than their PG counterparts, unless you can prove otherwise

hey thanks for putting that so nicely...^^^

but this is just a broad stroke and not directed at you....but all this nit picking and going back and forth asking me to clarify what i meant is total bullshit....i would hope yall knew exactly what i was talking about i know i havent been speaking in riddles.... i really just wanted to know about the build of the lower line speakers and i got the info i asked about so thanks to that poster...

but the rest is just stupid.....i mean this is not sounddomain is it

[Bfowler]

hehe, but when you say something on this board like "PG amps aren't what they used to be..zapco is better"

that's like going into a catholic church and telling them "Islam is a better religion..i wont go into details why..but look it has more members"

you are going to illicit some responses..

[stipud]

Thank you Brian. I was trying to come up with a Bananas vs Apples response, but I like the way you put it better

Theburb, with all due respect, you didn't make your point very clear. If all you were complaining about is the lack of insane competition amps, then I can agree on that. I personally thought you were saying that the current PG amps were no good. While they definitely aren't monster amplifiers or showpieces, they are still good amplifiers, which offer quality near par with Zapco for a fraction of the cost. The Roadster 66 is a huge step in the right direction... once PG gains a bit of momentum again, they can start thinking about new toys to wow us with.

[theburb]

hehe, but when you say something on this board like "PG amps aren't what they used to be..zapco is better"

that's like going into a catholic church and telling them "Islam is a better religion..i wont go into details why..but look it has more members"

you are going to illicit some responses..

hey but i never said that and dont put words in my mouth i always said things about the c2k line and that zap picked and right where pg peaks out at...

[theburb]

Thank you Brian. I was trying to come up with a Bananas vs Apples response, but I like the way you put it better

Theburb, with all due respect, you didn't make your point very clear. If all you were complaining about is the lack of insane competition amps, then I can agree on that. I personally thought you were saying that the current PG amps were no good. While they definitely aren't monster amplifiers or showpieces, they are still good amplifiers, which offer quality near par with Zapco for a fraction of the cost. The Roadster 66 is a huge step in the right direction... once PG gains a bit of momentum again, they can start thinking about new toys to wow us with.

see but all i was ever talking about are the c2k lines and the heavy 4 channels and the giant stereo amps they got....never did i bring in the other lines i dont know anything about those except they always looked like the old m series amps....i was just talking about amps the people serious about car audio would be interested in....that was all

now this might and will come off harsh....but i will make the bold blanket statement now because maybe it might do some good.....but the roadster will flop because its just a feeble attempt for pg from market a relic from the past and its been held up way too long and most general consumers that will see it....will just see it as overpriced trash...people nowadays dont even know what class a/b amps are anymore....if it aint digital and throwing out a baziillion watts they dont care because there will be a company selling one right around the corner.

after the small core diehard pg fans buy them new at retail or cost...the rest will just sit and fuck up any hope pg has for a return to the great lands.

say im wrong and i wish i was or tell me i just dont know....but we will see when they start popping up on ebay next august as b-stock and non movers....its happened with all their other products up to date....so i take market performance over fan/pr dreams any day...

is it one of the best things they have built in a long time yes....did they drop the ball after all the hype it got last year yes...will they be able to market it over all the other heavy hitters this year a ces....no

[stipud]

Well, none of us have been able to get our hands on any Roadsters (except that lucky bastard Ahsmo), because they've all been pre-sold already. So I'm not quite sure you're correct on that one

[theburb]

Well, none of us have been able to get our hands on any Roadsters (except that lucky bastard Ahsmo), because they've all been pre-sold already. So I'm not quite sure you're correct on that one

well i will believe it when i actually see it...but since its nothing but talk who is to say....right

[VW337]

To beat a dead horse....

thanks for this-

all i was ever talking about are the c2k lines and the heavy 4 channels and the giant stereo amps they got....never did i bring in the other lines i dont know anything about those except they always looked like the old m series amps....i was just talking about amps the people serious about car audio would be interested in....that was all

Here is where things all went wrong:

im not worried about the amps....i came to terms long ago that pg will never be shit again in the car audio world....

You then go on to say that the C2K line is the best thing since sliced bread and what not, when this whole thing could have been summed up and clarified in the beginning by saying this instead:


I'm not worried about the amps....i came to terms long ago that pg will not likely provide amps with the power specs I am looking for ever again in the car audio world....


Your initial statement at that point would have provided a real life subjective position instead of saying they're shit and then throwing another brand out there without saying why one is better than another. Factoids go a long way.


Also note that I am not a PG employee, at one time yes I was, but no longer.

[theburb]

To beat a dead horse....

thanks for this-

all i was ever talking about are the c2k lines and the heavy 4 channels and the giant stereo amps they got....never did i bring in the other lines i dont know anything about those except they always looked like the old m series amps....i was just talking about amps the people serious about car audio would be interested in....that was all

Here is where things all went wrong:

im not worried about the amps....i came to terms long ago that pg will never be shit again in the car audio world....

You then go on to say that the C2K line is the best thing since sliced bread and what not, when this whole thing could have been summed up and clarified in the beginning by saying this instead:


I'm not worried about the amps....i came to terms long ago that pg will not likely provide amps with the power specs I am looking for ever again in the car audio world....


Your initial statement at that point would have provided a real life subjective position instead of saying they're shit and then throwing another brand out there without saying why one is better than another. Factoids go a long way.


Also note that I am not a PG employee, at one time yes I was, but no longer.

again not to beat a dead horse either but as i said earlier dont put words in my mouth if i didnt type it then i never said it....if you read what i was posting and surmised all that other shit thats on you....but almost every fucking post i made in this thread from post #20 to this clearly had c2k in it and ref talking about why pg didnt make amps like that anymore and that zap is dominating a market spot that pg once held .... but im going to let all this go because it still a pointless argument....again thanks for the people that posted the info about the rival speaker line it helped..