I recently got everything installed in my car. If i'm listening to music at a fairly loud volume, it sounds like my front tweeters and mids suddenly decrease in volume. I have to lower the volume and then raise it again until it happens once more. I'm not clipping the speakers, they never distort, so the power is clean it just a little frustrating. I thought it was the headunit ground initially so I changed it to a much better chassis ground and thoroughly sanded around the area and it still does it.
I am open to suggestions. I plan on trying a more direct ground to the amplifier sometime this week. Its currently on about 1 foot of 4gauge wire to 1.5 feet of 1/0 gauge on a distro block.
Pheonix Gold Xenon 200.4 Issues
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dedlyjedly
- Silent but Dedly
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No, I am just using one power terminal. I also have a Xenon 600.1 grounded on the same distro block. The 200.4 is powering a Dynaudio 242 GT http://www.dynaudio.com/eng/auto/esotec/242gt.php for the fronts and a set of PG 65rsds (no tweeters) for rear fill. I haven't heard the PGs give out on my yet. Everything is passive. Alpine CDA 9887 Headunit.
Let me know if more information is needed.
Let me know if more information is needed.
I'm fairly sure this deals with the amplifier. When I first installed everything i didn't raise the gains much and was listening at max volume on the headunit (35/35) and my fronts suddenly decreased in volume. I figured it was the headunit ground. I switched the headunit ground to a much better one and adjusted the gains on the 200.4. Then yesterday it happened again when the volume was at 25/35.
I read in the manual that both the power terminals aren't required for the Xenon, but I may hook the other one up just to see what happens.
I read in the manual that both the power terminals aren't required for the Xenon, but I may hook the other one up just to see what happens.
Did you try switching around the RCA's like C suggested? And what about other signal processing equip.?
Are you sure the Defeat is "off" on your HU and you're not somehow toggling it "on" when you adjust the volume button/knob?
My Alpine HU toggles the defeat option on and off by depressing the volume knob, but I'm not sure about the model you have. . .mine is older.
It seems like some sort of protect or overload muting circuitry is kicking in or something. . .curious. let us know
Are you sure the Defeat is "off" on your HU and you're not somehow toggling it "on" when you adjust the volume button/knob?
My Alpine HU toggles the defeat option on and off by depressing the volume knob, but I'm not sure about the model you have. . .mine is older.
It seems like some sort of protect or overload muting circuitry is kicking in or something. . .curious. let us know
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Bfowler
- Briaans..... BRIAAAAANNNNNNS
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i suspect this to be the culprit also. i sued to experience that same phenomenon when i was running 8awg to my xs4600.mr tibbs wrote:Are you using both ground and power terminals?
what is your 1/0 grounded to? sheet metal? frame? battery?
the ground is possibly not allowing enough currant through
my ex-girlfriend said "its car audio or me"
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
How hot is the Xenon amp when this happens < you must check the bottom of the amp as the case has no cooling everything is attached to the bottom plate hence the fans >
I mounted my Xenon on little feet so air could get to the bottom plate to increase cooling.
The reason I ask is that the xenon is well protected and unless it's hot it should not roll back. Now that does not mean that there is not something else wrong but, I am thinking about the simple things first.
Have you ever had the cover off the amp ? look for loose or broken solder joints in the power supply section. And yes run power and ground to both sides of the amp if it is expected to see high power operation.
Also what type and style fuse do you use KF or Glass ? I have glass and I have to try fuses to fin ones that will hold the power the amp draws < cheap Chinese imported crap fuses> I am changing to KF soon.
Anyway the xenon will protect itself IF its too hot. I say this because its the way the amps built but that roll back should only be about 2 db's.
It appears that your running stable and balanced loads on the amp so I am guessing its heat related, but thats a guess.
Where is the amp mounted and does it get fresh air in its location < its not class D so it get really hot in standard operation>
And are you monitoring your charging system as some modern alternators get hot and shutdown and when this happens your looking at drop from 14 volts to 12 volts because the alternator is shutting off to protect itself. < this amp can draw 125 amperes at full power and most cars can't handle that load on the stock charging system. < do you have a aftermarket alternator rated at least at 200 amperes> I do and I even get drops on the 12 volt side back to 12 all the time, this is a really powerful amp and you just can't drop it in a car and expect the car to like the load it places on the charging system, it won't
So there are a lot of possible reasons for the issues you may be having, and the only way to really test the amp is to supply it tons of 14 volt power and see if it exhibits the same issues your experiencing. then I would say the amp MAY need benching to see if there is something wrong inside.
You could send it to PG/Rodin and have them bench the amp for a power test, they will not let you down, as power as always been a big point to PG even way back....C
I mounted my Xenon on little feet so air could get to the bottom plate to increase cooling.
The reason I ask is that the xenon is well protected and unless it's hot it should not roll back. Now that does not mean that there is not something else wrong but, I am thinking about the simple things first.
Have you ever had the cover off the amp ? look for loose or broken solder joints in the power supply section. And yes run power and ground to both sides of the amp if it is expected to see high power operation.
Also what type and style fuse do you use KF or Glass ? I have glass and I have to try fuses to fin ones that will hold the power the amp draws < cheap Chinese imported crap fuses> I am changing to KF soon.
Anyway the xenon will protect itself IF its too hot. I say this because its the way the amps built but that roll back should only be about 2 db's.
It appears that your running stable and balanced loads on the amp so I am guessing its heat related, but thats a guess.
Where is the amp mounted and does it get fresh air in its location < its not class D so it get really hot in standard operation>
And are you monitoring your charging system as some modern alternators get hot and shutdown and when this happens your looking at drop from 14 volts to 12 volts because the alternator is shutting off to protect itself. < this amp can draw 125 amperes at full power and most cars can't handle that load on the stock charging system. < do you have a aftermarket alternator rated at least at 200 amperes> I do and I even get drops on the 12 volt side back to 12 all the time, this is a really powerful amp and you just can't drop it in a car and expect the car to like the load it places on the charging system, it won't
So there are a lot of possible reasons for the issues you may be having, and the only way to really test the amp is to supply it tons of 14 volt power and see if it exhibits the same issues your experiencing. then I would say the amp MAY need benching to see if there is something wrong inside.
You could send it to PG/Rodin and have them bench the amp for a power test, they will not let you down, as power as always been a big point to PG even way back....C
The ground is to the frame in my trunk, which has been sanded also. Later tonight I will head to best buy and get another ANL fuse for the other power terminal and let you guys know. Thanks again for all the suggestions and help.
I don't believe its a power issue, i do have a fairly small amp alternator, everything in the Toyota Celica is small. But i have done the Big 3 in the front of the engine and I have a yellowtop in the trunk. I can just barely see the lights dim at night in the heaviest bass notes my 600.1 can turn out.
I don't believe its a power issue, i do have a fairly small amp alternator, everything in the Toyota Celica is small. But i have done the Big 3 in the front of the engine and I have a yellowtop in the trunk. I can just barely see the lights dim at night in the heaviest bass notes my 600.1 can turn out.
Just wanted to also add that IMO I would NEVER NEVER even think about touching the gain on this amp when you have your HU at full tilt. A distorted signal is being sent to the amp via RCA's at this point. Instead, you should set your HU volume up to about 7/8 of max, or about 30 to 31, listen for distortion; if it's at 32 when you just barely hear it, back it down to 31. THEN turn your gain up very slowly until you hear distortion, flick it back down just barely so you don't hear anymore. Use the bass boost very sparingly too!!
Honestly I never really paid attention to this style of gain adjustment for years until I got this amp. I have a pair of Polks with a crossover for each side in my front door panels and with the sens. and bass boost at about 1/4, I started to smell burning voice coil and distortion at 28 on the volume (Same volume max as your Alpine). This set is rated for 100 Wrms each side, which really surprised me. At 35 I don't even want to imagine what could happen to the speakers, crossovers, or the amp. Don't want to scare you, I just wanted to share this experience.
Thanks for bringing that up Cecil. . .I remember reading the owner's manual a couple years back and it said that thermal protection circuitry for the amp does kick in when it gets too hot. And yes, it just barely reduces output. . . 2dB, you wouldn't hear any noticeable difference, so overload circuitry wouldn't be the culprit.
Honestly I never really paid attention to this style of gain adjustment for years until I got this amp. I have a pair of Polks with a crossover for each side in my front door panels and with the sens. and bass boost at about 1/4, I started to smell burning voice coil and distortion at 28 on the volume (Same volume max as your Alpine). This set is rated for 100 Wrms each side, which really surprised me. At 35 I don't even want to imagine what could happen to the speakers, crossovers, or the amp. Don't want to scare you, I just wanted to share this experience.
Thanks for bringing that up Cecil. . .I remember reading the owner's manual a couple years back and it said that thermal protection circuitry for the amp does kick in when it gets too hot. And yes, it just barely reduces output. . . 2dB, you wouldn't hear any noticeable difference, so overload circuitry wouldn't be the culprit.
okay, lots of great input here. First thing I noticed which has been overlooked (I didn't see it) is:
Are the Front speakers decreasing or front and rear?
Did you do as mentioned about swapping the RCA's? this will allow you to diagnose weather it is amp of HU related if only one set of speakers is decreasing in output.
Can I get a photo of the inside view of that dyn XO? If that XO has what looks to be a big glass fuse inside or an orange disk, you have a thermal protection device built into it. The fuse looking thing will glow under high power as a means to remove excess voltage, the orange disk increases the resistance as it heats up.
I suspect your issue is in the Dyn passive XO not the amp as from what you are describing it is just the fronts, if this was amp related due to power or thermal issue you would experience this on all 4 channels.
Are the Front speakers decreasing or front and rear?
Did you do as mentioned about swapping the RCA's? this will allow you to diagnose weather it is amp of HU related if only one set of speakers is decreasing in output.
Can I get a photo of the inside view of that dyn XO? If that XO has what looks to be a big glass fuse inside or an orange disk, you have a thermal protection device built into it. The fuse looking thing will glow under high power as a means to remove excess voltage, the orange disk increases the resistance as it heats up.
I suspect your issue is in the Dyn passive XO not the amp as from what you are describing it is just the fronts, if this was amp related due to power or thermal issue you would experience this on all 4 channels.
I think we've established that "Ka Ka" and "Tukki Tukki" don't work.
I went to best buy tonight, apparently they are not good enough to sell a fuse holder that fits 1/0 gauge (I plan on using the one on my Alternator+ to Battery+ as the fuse for the 200.4 as that one doesn't quite fit 1/0 gauge and getting one that fits 1/0 w/o modification). So I ordered another one off of ebay.
I placed the 65rsds on the front channel to try to reproduce the problem. I couldn't use the same gain setting but I couldn't get the drop in volume. Come to think of it, I probably should have placed the dyns on the rear channel to try to get them to drop in volume but i didn't. Also when I listen to music I usually just fade the output so that I hear it mainly from the front speakers. I haven't noticed the rsd give out on me because their output is reduced because of the fading and their gain isn't set nearly as high as dyns with the mids and tweeters.
I took the cover off the Dyn XO and it doesn't look like there is any thermal protection. There were just 6 resistors, 2 capacitors, and 2 inductors.
The Xenon 200.4 has a 150 amp ANL fuse on the power terminal.
I did reduce the bass boost settings on both the fronts and the rears to see if that helps. I will test out the system on my 40 minute commute to class tomarrow.
I placed the 65rsds on the front channel to try to reproduce the problem. I couldn't use the same gain setting but I couldn't get the drop in volume. Come to think of it, I probably should have placed the dyns on the rear channel to try to get them to drop in volume but i didn't. Also when I listen to music I usually just fade the output so that I hear it mainly from the front speakers. I haven't noticed the rsd give out on me because their output is reduced because of the fading and their gain isn't set nearly as high as dyns with the mids and tweeters.
I took the cover off the Dyn XO and it doesn't look like there is any thermal protection. There were just 6 resistors, 2 capacitors, and 2 inductors.
The Xenon 200.4 has a 150 amp ANL fuse on the power terminal.
I did reduce the bass boost settings on both the fronts and the rears to see if that helps. I will test out the system on my 40 minute commute to class tomarrow.
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Bfowler
- Briaans..... BRIAAAAANNNNNNS
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so you weren't able to run a second run of 4awg to the second set of terminals on the 200.4? now knowing you were using your bass boost makes me suspect it was starving for power even more. bass boost uses up a surprising amount of currant
my ex-girlfriend said "its car audio or me"
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
i've had tougher choices at a soda machine...
Have you tried this method of setting your gains?
http://phoenixphorum.com/gain-setting-w ... vt280.html
Download a 60Hz test tone, and burn it to a CD...
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Test%20Tones/index.html
Unhook your speakers, disable all bass and treble boost, all EQing and DSP on your headunit (NEVER boost a signal, always reduce instead!). Set your headunit to 25-30 or so (this volume will be your MAX from now on). Disable the crossovers so that the amps will play full range, and disconnect the remote from the X600.1.
Now play the test tone in a loop, and get out your multimeter, set to read AC~ volts. You want to reach 200 watts at 4 ohms, so you need sqrt(200*4) = 28 volts or less. Adjust your gains until you reach this number.
You can also set the gains on your X600.1 as well, just measure for sqrt(600*4) = 49 volts or less. You can afford to set this gain a bit higher if you have something like an LPL that lets you turn it down for songs with heavy bass. That way, on songs with weaker bass, you can increase the sensitivity of the amplifier. This is much better than bass boost, as it doesn't artificially add any distorted signal.
Now you can turn your crossovers back on... and you should be good to go!
http://phoenixphorum.com/gain-setting-w ... vt280.html
Download a 60Hz test tone, and burn it to a CD...
http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Test%20Tones/index.html
Unhook your speakers, disable all bass and treble boost, all EQing and DSP on your headunit (NEVER boost a signal, always reduce instead!). Set your headunit to 25-30 or so (this volume will be your MAX from now on). Disable the crossovers so that the amps will play full range, and disconnect the remote from the X600.1.
Now play the test tone in a loop, and get out your multimeter, set to read AC~ volts. You want to reach 200 watts at 4 ohms, so you need sqrt(200*4) = 28 volts or less. Adjust your gains until you reach this number.
You can also set the gains on your X600.1 as well, just measure for sqrt(600*4) = 49 volts or less. You can afford to set this gain a bit higher if you have something like an LPL that lets you turn it down for songs with heavy bass. That way, on songs with weaker bass, you can increase the sensitivity of the amplifier. This is much better than bass boost, as it doesn't artificially add any distorted signal.
Now you can turn your crossovers back on... and you should be good to go!
I'm familiar with that method of setting gains, however I did not do that procedure on this setup. I will attempt this soon enough because I'm curious what will happen. One question though, would I want to use a higher frequency for my tweeters also? Would I calculate their combine resistance in parallel or just leave it at 4 ohms. I'm not familiar with the wiring inside the crossover but I believe it would be in parallel fashion. That is, a 4 ohm speaker in parallel with an 8 ohm tweeter would yield 2.667 ohms.
I'm not sure the mids could handle all 200 watts by themselves w/o blowing and I would not like to chance it.
I'm not sure the mids could handle all 200 watts by themselves w/o blowing and I would not like to chance it.
hp filter is all you use... Turn off all bass boost, use the second power terminal, make sure you have a solid ground/ThreadI have a very similar problem as Boomy
Im using the xenon 200.4 , running a set of JBL GT series splits
up front , and a pioneer 12 inch 1200(400 rms) watt sub bridged on the rear channels.
Im using an active crossover as well.The problem I have is when I play the system loud for about 30 minutes , the splits start to distort.If I reduce the volume the distortion goes away.
The Xenon amp needs , i think a maximum input of 12v , im barely giving the amp 5v , which means , the amp is not even workig that hard.O yes , I am using both power inputs.
Can anyone please assist me with this issue.
Thanx
Im using the xenon 200.4 , running a set of JBL GT series splits
up front , and a pioneer 12 inch 1200(400 rms) watt sub bridged on the rear channels.
Im using an active crossover as well.The problem I have is when I play the system loud for about 30 minutes , the splits start to distort.If I reduce the volume the distortion goes away.
The Xenon amp needs , i think a maximum input of 12v , im barely giving the amp 5v , which means , the amp is not even workig that hard.O yes , I am using both power inputs.
Can anyone please assist me with this issue.
Thanx
A simple check I would do is when the volume reduces, I'd check the RCA's voltage... If they were peaking at like 3v from the HU to the amp before the volume reduction and are now peaking at like 1v, then you know it's the HU. If it's about the same, then I'd move onto the speaker terminals and test them.
If they were peaking at like 15v before, and are now peaking at like 5v (after you confirmed that the RCAs are still peaking at about the same), then you know it's the amp.
By peaking, I mean use a DMM, set it to AC and, while playing your song, look at the DMM voltage move around (depending on song). When you see the problem occur, check the voltage again (for the same song as before) and see if the voltage seems about the same. This will help you identify if it's the HU or the amp.
If they were peaking at like 15v before, and are now peaking at like 5v (after you confirmed that the RCAs are still peaking at about the same), then you know it's the amp.
By peaking, I mean use a DMM, set it to AC and, while playing your song, look at the DMM voltage move around (depending on song). When you see the problem occur, check the voltage again (for the same song as before) and see if the voltage seems about the same. This will help you identify if it's the HU or the amp.