Ive been using a two way system w/ the mids and tweeters mounted in the kicks vs the mids in the kicks and the tweets up high.
My synopsis:
With the mids and tweets in the kick once dialed in the image sits about 2" above the dash, but had a rainbow effect and dropped about 4 to 5 inches at the far end of the stage. It was Eqed w/ an RTA as flat as I could in each individual channel separately w/ the p9. Bothered the hell out of me, so I moved the tweets up high and moved the cross from 3khz w/ 4th order slope to 4khz w/ again a 4th order slope. Once dialed in again the image stayed centered and moved up about 3" and I lost the rainbow effect, but there was just something off. I believe is was possibly a phase issue w/ moving the tweet away from the mid? Nothing I did could fix it tho.... flipping the phase every way possible and playing w/ the eq.
I know this isn't a real hardcore SQ forum but anyone else experiencing these things I am? I'm kind of stuck at this point as I can't figure out an install trick or tuning trick that can fix it either way. Any one have any ideas...
My next step is to play w/ having a midbass in the kicks and a mid and tweet up high, as it seems if reflections can be tammed or used, seems Ideal at least when referring to physics.
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bladestars
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bladestars wrote:i LOVED my mids+tweet in the A-pillar. with no eq'ing and just phase adjustments between them and the midbass the soundstage was very high. Midbass seemed to play at above chest height and there was much more of a snap compared to having mids in kicks or in doors.
Midbass if crossed low is very easy to take care of...just make sure you cant feel it and it will be very hard to localize if it's coming from L/R.
My concern is the reflective surfaces up high, but I have a few idea how to fix that through placement angling and elimanting all but one of those surfaces
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mr tibbs
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Dashmat FTW!!!bdubs767 wrote:bladestars wrote:i LOVED my mids+tweet in the A-pillar. with no eq'ing and just phase adjustments between them and the midbass the soundstage was very high. Midbass seemed to play at above chest height and there was much more of a snap compared to having mids in kicks or in doors.
Midbass if crossed low is very easy to take care of...just make sure you cant feel it and it will be very hard to localize if it's coming from L/R.
My concern is the reflective surfaces up high, but I have a few idea how to fix that through placement angling and elimanting all but one of those surfaces
i've never heard a car yet with tweeters in kicks that didn't have the rainbow effect, i'm sure there's plenty out there that don't but most of them do, i always go for a pillar mounted tweets facing each other (if off axis responce is good), or slightly angled in if your using softies!
i also like 12 of 18db slopes for front end duties, seam to blend better imo, i would imagine a 4th order slope would be too detached for an a pillar mounted tweet, anything goes in car hifi anyway so just play about.
remember, phase and amplitude are key to a good sounding stage ONLY once you have your install right.....
i also like 12 of 18db slopes for front end duties, seam to blend better imo, i would imagine a 4th order slope would be too detached for an a pillar mounted tweet, anything goes in car hifi anyway so just play about.
remember, phase and amplitude are key to a good sounding stage ONLY once you have your install right.....
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When you say you tried switching phase on every driver, are you using the phase reverse feature of the head unit? If so, try making the change physically at the driver. I've found the P-9 doesn't quite do it electronically the same as doing it physically. Not sure why.
Try this, with all head unit settings set to 'in-phase', reverse the polarity of the passenger side mid. Then listen to that. I've found that works almost every time. It's a path length difference of the mid frequencies that affect both imaging and height. It definately makes a bigger difference than using the head unit's reverse feature.
Try this, with all head unit settings set to 'in-phase', reverse the polarity of the passenger side mid. Then listen to that. I've found that works almost every time. It's a path length difference of the mid frequencies that affect both imaging and height. It definately makes a bigger difference than using the head unit's reverse feature.
Greg Kitching
Are you using the P9 to generate these filters for your components?
If so, you can have all sorts of hard to iron out issues, simply because it is a digital device. It very likely does not have the same phase shift as a physical 4th order filter would, or it might not even have any phase shift at all. When a manufacturer builds a digital processor they actually have to design in the phase shift with crossovers, or they may choose none at all.
When Rockford worked on new crossover designs, they started using a powerful digital processor. Once the basic design was finished, they would then build the actual physical circuit and give it a listen. There were always distinct differences between the physical crossover and the digitally simulated one, largely due to phase differences. At this point the physical crossover would then be “tweaked” until the desired effect was achieved.
If you have not tried it already, I suggest you do some physical polarity changes. Start with changing only one tweeters polarity at the leads or amp channel and see what you get. Switch it back and change the other tweeters polarity. Play with the mids as well, but the tweeters would likely be your best bet, depending on how well your mids blend to your subs.
If so, you can have all sorts of hard to iron out issues, simply because it is a digital device. It very likely does not have the same phase shift as a physical 4th order filter would, or it might not even have any phase shift at all. When a manufacturer builds a digital processor they actually have to design in the phase shift with crossovers, or they may choose none at all.
When Rockford worked on new crossover designs, they started using a powerful digital processor. Once the basic design was finished, they would then build the actual physical circuit and give it a listen. There were always distinct differences between the physical crossover and the digitally simulated one, largely due to phase differences. At this point the physical crossover would then be “tweaked” until the desired effect was achieved.
If you have not tried it already, I suggest you do some physical polarity changes. Start with changing only one tweeters polarity at the leads or amp channel and see what you get. Switch it back and change the other tweeters polarity. Play with the mids as well, but the tweeters would likely be your best bet, depending on how well your mids blend to your subs.
It might be the speakers I use (quarts) but I have always had good luck in running the tweets in reverse polarity. Stay away from the mids, it will mess with your midbass. That being said, I havent competed since the late 90's, where simpler could be better.
REALLY!?
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Let me clarify a few things...
When I say tune it in, I am refering setting xover points, slopes, eq, ta, phase, and amplitude.
The P9 can only flip the phase 180 degrees per high, mid, low, sub. It cant flip each indvidual speaker, so all my phase flips are done by physically reversing the polarity.
I only use 2nd order and 4th order slopes, and sometimes a 36db slope. The rest give weird phase responses. I have to use 4th order to for that install to be succesful as it is essentail the mid plays up to at least 3khz and 4khz is far better. Those frequencies are vital to have the best possible PLDs IMO, when you get up into when the vertical cues begin around 4khz PLDS dont become as important.
I am using the digital xover to create the crosses.
When I also say it's "off" w/ the mid in kicks and tweets up high, I really mean it sounds amazing but not perfect lol. I am willing to say that probably about 99% of the car audio community would be thrilled with those results.....but im looking for one up. The only way I can see it working better is by keeping the tweet close to the midrange...so that means in the kicks w/ the mid but you get the rainbow effect or put it up on the dash w/ a smaller mid.
Is this something else you all are experiencing, if youve tried to play around?
When I say tune it in, I am refering setting xover points, slopes, eq, ta, phase, and amplitude.
The P9 can only flip the phase 180 degrees per high, mid, low, sub. It cant flip each indvidual speaker, so all my phase flips are done by physically reversing the polarity.
I only use 2nd order and 4th order slopes, and sometimes a 36db slope. The rest give weird phase responses. I have to use 4th order to for that install to be succesful as it is essentail the mid plays up to at least 3khz and 4khz is far better. Those frequencies are vital to have the best possible PLDs IMO, when you get up into when the vertical cues begin around 4khz PLDS dont become as important.
I am using the digital xover to create the crosses.
When I also say it's "off" w/ the mid in kicks and tweets up high, I really mean it sounds amazing but not perfect lol. I am willing to say that probably about 99% of the car audio community would be thrilled with those results.....but im looking for one up. The only way I can see it working better is by keeping the tweet close to the midrange...so that means in the kicks w/ the mid but you get the rainbow effect or put it up on the dash w/ a smaller mid.
Is this something else you all are experiencing, if youve tried to play around?
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
One possible solution would be ambient tweeters mounted up high. This drastically improved things in two more elaborate installs I was involved in. If you cross them over high enough they only add effect, and will not take away from the soundstage you worked so hard to get with your kick panels.
What are you using to verify phase? Does your RTA measure it, or are you using an o-scope or some other analyzer?
What are you using to verify phase? Does your RTA measure it, or are you using an o-scope or some other analyzer?
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martinkruit
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When you need to shift the phase with 90 degrees, just ad a passive filter component to the Mid or tweeter (just one condensator in serie with the driver will shift the fase 90 degrees)
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Nope never verified the phase through a tool...now thats and idea. But I dont have a clue what the hell would measure phase. You can have a pretty good idea of phase through your ears though, at least in terms of a 180 degree flip. If you are able to localize a certain speaker it is most likely due to a phase issue.Eric D wrote:One possible solution would be ambient tweeters mounted up high. This drastically improved things in two more elaborate installs I was involved in. If you cross them over high enough they only add effect, and will not take away from the soundstage you worked so hard to get with your kick panels.
What are you using to verify phase? Does your RTA measure it, or are you using an o-scope or some other analyzer?
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
Here's one.bdubs767 wrote:Nope never verified the phase through a tool...now thats and idea. But I dont have a clue what the hell would measure phase. You can have a pretty good idea of phase through your ears though, at least in terms of a 180 degree flip. If you are able to localize a certain speaker it is most likely due to a phase issue.Eric D wrote:One possible solution would be ambient tweeters mounted up high. This drastically improved things in two more elaborate installs I was involved in. If you cross them over high enough they only add effect, and will not take away from the soundstage you worked so hard to get with your kick panels.
What are you using to verify phase? Does your RTA measure it, or are you using an o-scope or some other analyzer?
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdet ... N=51720973
You can probably find one cheeper but this is a start.
Greg Kitching
To get a three-way to work in car atleast, I've found most can;t figure out the right combination of phase flips to get it to work. If you do the results can be outstanding. A equally matched two way system will not be able to match the dynamics at higher volumes a three way system can. I agree with you though simple is usually better in terms of SQ, but 3 way can work and for an all out SQ car coudl possibly work better....something I am playing with right now.Hontzo_MD wrote:It might be the speakers I use (quarts) but I have always had good luck in running the tweets in reverse polarity. Stay away from the mids, it will mess with your midbass. That being said, I havent competed since the late 90's, where simpler could be better.
I also tend to think a three way is better in the home, as it is a lot easier to control multiple drivers mounted on the same vertical plan.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
Not the phase....it may seem that way, but when you switch the phase for the L side it will automatically shift the phase for the right side, and visa versa.gkitching wrote:bdubs, I noticed you mentioned not being able to adjust phase on each individual driver. Are you using the 'Pro Mode'? I can adjust each driver for x/over, ta, phase, and eq sperately left and right with my P9 set to Pro Mode.
Only unit Im aware of that does it is alpine h701, h900, and h990
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
An actual phase tester will just tell you 0 or 180 deg to my knowledge. To determine the range of phase, you need something like an O-scope where you can put the input on one trace and the output on the other to observe the difference.
I am sure you already know this, but I will mention it for anyone else reading this thread, phase adjustment and time alignment are for the most part the same thing. Adding a delay to a signal (time alignment) is effectively altering its phase. So if a system has a seeming phase related problem, it might be caused by improper time alignment settings instead of just a phase setting or a crossover design.
I almost wish they would not put time alignment settings on head units or other processors these days as getting them right is pretty challenging IMO. It requires a lot of testing with equipment. Getting it right by ear is pretty hard, considering the other 1000 variables in the car environment.
Although you can often easily locate a speaker when there are phase related issues, you may be locating a speaker for a multitude of other reasons. If a particular instrument is coming out of only one channel, I would guess you will locate on the speaker easily since it is the single source of audio in this case. If there is a buzz or rattle either in the speaker, or its mounting, or something near it, you will locate it easily. This could be very subtle, such that you don’t think anything is buzzing or rattling, but it might still be there.
I am sure you already know this, but I will mention it for anyone else reading this thread, phase adjustment and time alignment are for the most part the same thing. Adding a delay to a signal (time alignment) is effectively altering its phase. So if a system has a seeming phase related problem, it might be caused by improper time alignment settings instead of just a phase setting or a crossover design.
I almost wish they would not put time alignment settings on head units or other processors these days as getting them right is pretty challenging IMO. It requires a lot of testing with equipment. Getting it right by ear is pretty hard, considering the other 1000 variables in the car environment.
Although you can often easily locate a speaker when there are phase related issues, you may be locating a speaker for a multitude of other reasons. If a particular instrument is coming out of only one channel, I would guess you will locate on the speaker easily since it is the single source of audio in this case. If there is a buzz or rattle either in the speaker, or its mounting, or something near it, you will locate it easily. This could be very subtle, such that you don’t think anything is buzzing or rattling, but it might still be there.
I'll be damned! You're right! I thought I knew this thing in and out but never took notice to it automatically switching the opposite channel on the phase adjustment. Shitttt! Well that explains why I never got the results I expected. I don't even bother with that feature because of that.
Do you or anyone else know if the euro version DEQ-P90 is the same? I know the Carrozeria is not.
Do you or anyone else know if the euro version DEQ-P90 is the same? I know the Carrozeria is not.
Greg Kitching
this is why i said the install is paramount, without this 1st all the other stuff is pointless and just a bandaid to getting things half right.Eric D wrote:Although you can often easily locate a speaker when there are phase related issues, you may be locating a speaker for a multitude of other reasons. If a particular instrument is coming out of only one channel, I would guess you will locate on the speaker easily since it is the single source of audio in this case. If there is a buzz or rattle either in the speaker, or its mounting, or something near it, you will locate it easily. This could be very subtle, such that you don’t think anything is buzzing or rattling, but it might still be there.
i'm also from the old school of thought that less is more, TA is the devils work and not necessary at all unless your stuck with bad speaker locations, decent kick builds will always rule
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Roadster 66 in flight case
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Ti400.2 AL
AX204A + EQ232 + ZPX2 + TBA set
ZCS6 component set
Tantrum+Titanium bass cubes
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Outlaw in crate.
2x original shrouded ms2250's.
Route 66 in box + custom m100 to match.
Roadster 66 in flight case
Octane LE in box.
Reactor #186 in flight case.
Reactor EQ232
Ti400.2 AL
AX204A + EQ232 + ZPX2 + TBA set
ZCS6 component set
Tantrum+Titanium bass cubes
Ti12d Elite sub
DD5 + DD10 + 6 Ti blocks!
Eric D wrote:An actual phase tester will just tell you 0 or 180 deg to my knowledge. To determine the range of phase, you need something like an O-scope where you can put the input on one trace and the output on the other to observe the difference.
I am sure you already know this, but I will mention it for anyone else reading this thread, phase adjustment and time alignment are for the most part the same thing. Adding a delay to a signal (time alignment) is effectively altering its phase. So if a system has a seeming phase related problem, it might be caused by improper time alignment settings instead of just a phase setting or a crossover design.
Also to add, EQing will change phase too.
Yes but I'm talking about in general here...amplitude could also cause this if your a dumb ass and set up one speaker with super high amplitude vs the others.Eric D wrote: If a particular instrument is coming out of only one channel, I would guess you will locate on the speaker easily since it is the single source of audio in this case. If there is a buzz or rattle either in the speaker, or its mounting, or something near it, you will locate it easily. This could be very subtle, such that you don’t think anything is buzzing or rattling, but it might still be there.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
marko wrote:this is why i said the install is paramount, without this 1st all the other stuff is pointless and just a bandaid to getting things half right.Eric D wrote:Although you can often easily locate a speaker when there are phase related issues, you may be locating a speaker for a multitude of other reasons. If a particular instrument is coming out of only one channel, I would guess you will locate on the speaker easily since it is the single source of audio in this case. If there is a buzz or rattle either in the speaker, or its mounting, or something near it, you will locate it easily. This could be very subtle, such that you don’t think anything is buzzing or rattling, but it might still be there.
i'm also from the old school of thought that less is more, TA is the devils work and not necessary at all unless your stuck with bad speaker locations, decent kick builds will always rule
TA is a helpful tool....install comes first and always will. TA will never be able to bad speaker locations, but if used correctly can fine tune a properly installed system.
I will agree it is a bitch to set, and tends to F it up in most cars.
Can one send others to war if hes not willing to go himself?
Hi there
having played with the same type of set up's you have, I can say this , stay away from builds up top , besides not sounding natural , you have to TA them quite a bit and they can create terrible blind spots in the car. Which minisies visibility.
To counter the rainbow effect, I like to use a set of imaging tweeters on the a-pillar, these are typically off the hedunit with a 6db filter, (cap and some tape) playing from 12k up , this helps a lot with the rainbow effect and becuase they are off the headunit they do not pull the stage either way.
Also helped me add width to the car.
having played with the same type of set up's you have, I can say this , stay away from builds up top , besides not sounding natural , you have to TA them quite a bit and they can create terrible blind spots in the car. Which minisies visibility.
To counter the rainbow effect, I like to use a set of imaging tweeters on the a-pillar, these are typically off the hedunit with a 6db filter, (cap and some tape) playing from 12k up , this helps a lot with the rainbow effect and becuase they are off the headunit they do not pull the stage either way.
Also helped me add width to the car.
AKA Shaheenk