MS1000 arrived today!

nico boom · Post by **nico boom** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:45 pm

"Honey, your new toy has just arrived, blocking the front door right now".
That was enough to get me home in no-time!!!
There it was; a HUGE BOX with my MS1000 in it, tested and double-boxed by the skilled hands of Cecil, to whom I say THANKS A [MS] THOUSAND TIMES!!!.

After unpacking, this amp really showed it's size; it's true what they say.. you can only see how big this thing is when you hold it in your hands!
[and then you also know how heavy it is haha!]
Note that the double-box is already removed at the pics; the actual size in which it arrived was even bigger..

Many thanks also to Errin, who picked up the amp local, and shipped it to Cecil after first inspection.
Errin also got me the needed parts, to convert the side-panels to the oldschool-type with the big [white] terminals in it. [means a lot to me Errin!]
One of these days I will figure out how to fit this monster into my home-setup; I already placed an even heavier power-supply in the basement than I used before.

So this arrival gives me a boost these days, and i just wanted to share that with you, my PG-brothers!
Nico.

Post by **stipud** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:48 pm

Glad to see it made it in one piece! Hope the tax wasn't too bad!

Post by **Wakeup** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:51 pm

YAYYYY!! Grats NICO!!!

Welcome to the MS1k club!

Post by **Rold Gold** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:53 pm

AWESOME!!!!!!

I know what ya mean about it's size....

I had 3 of these (all shiped out) at my house and they just make you want to touch em and look at em.

"Amp-porn" I think it's called and it's an addiction...........

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:56 pm

I will check Pedi's sink to see if I mistakenly placed your second plexi with his sink. But I thought it was on top top the original plexi in your box. If so I will pull it and ship it later on this month...Glad to see it made it safe and sound and with no Tariff on it.. ...C

PS I have first dibs on your old unused connectors they will fit my MS1K that in the mail to me right now...Oh and enjoy my pocket knife I accidentally sent you lol lol lol...THX C

brenzbmr@sb · Post by **brenzbmr@sb** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:56 pm

cool, anything special about them?

the c touch

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:04 pm

this one has all the PG stuff in it, but it does have 63 volt rails, and it should pound any speaker like a sledge hammer as is.....C

Post by **Rold Gold** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:15 pm

Yers has the black connectors in the PARTS box.

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:24 pm

Spares are nice to have on these ,,,, trust me I know where I am coming from here

Plus I think hes gonna keep them but I had to put in dibs here first....

especially now that I may be joining this crowd of big amp people soon myself Thanks to you big H....

Post by **Rold Gold** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:38 pm

I'm just happy I could help keep those in the fam. Who knows where they'd have ended up if I hadn't.

Why is an MS1000 better than a woman?........

A- Cus you can pound on it all you want to and it'll still put out....
B- Cus you can show yer friends pic's of her bottomless and she don't care....
C- Cus she like when you bring home others to play....

Shit, I think ALL OF THE ABOVE fits this anwser...

Post by **mr tibbs** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 3:49 pm

She's a beauty nico! I'm glad people here can help each other out like this so we can all enjoy th PG goodness!

Post by **Eric D** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:22 pm

63V rails in a TA, no way...

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:34 pm

Eric when have I ever lied to ya ??? I measured this myself and my DMM is not faulty...This one had +&- 63 volts on the caps on each channel just like the original.....Its gonna be very loud ....

gkitching · Post by **gkitching** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:39 pm

mr tibbs wrote:She's a beauty nico! I'm glad people here can help each other out like this so we can all enjoy th PG goodness!

x2

Post by **Eric D** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:43 pm

But that is impossible. Unless you measured an amp other than the one in those photos.

The amp in these photos uses the TA transformer which simply does not have enough windings to generate 63V rails. If you look at it, you can see it is “thin” in its winding density. If you look at a real transformer capable of 63V, you will see it is far thicker (even though they both share the same core). Far more turns are required to get to 63V.

And additionally, I really hope that amp is not 63V. If it is, I look for it to die under load. Its transformers have only two primary windings, not four. Since the board only has provisions for specific sized leads, it has effectively half the cross sectional area of an original MS2250s transformer primaries. Considering the additional current demands of 63V, and you are looking at primaries which cannot sustain the current. My guess is they will heat up and die under load.

If that is indeed 63V, then it is using custom or one off transformers, and they are significantly under built, which compromises the abilities of this amplifier.

Post by **Eric D** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:48 pm

One more quick tidbit. Even if it has 63V rails, the amp will never see full output. The TA preamp section limits output as it will clip prior to even getting close to the rail voltages. In order to get full output, the voltage gain of the opamp preamp circuits need to be adjusted.

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:14 pm

Evening Eric,
I am aware of all your points you mentioned above, but none the less Nico's amp stock from PG has +&- 63 volts referenced to center tap, and I did nothing to alter it.

It meet spec for output at rated distortion, and so I let it be as is from PG, as Nico asked that I check it and nothing more. Thanks for the heads up and all the info. I saw your other post about this a while back.

I have a situation coming up in a few weeks perhaps I can look into your points more then. Until then thanks for the heads up, but Nico's amp has 63 volt rails....C

Pedi · Post by **Pedi** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:07 am

1moreamp wrote:I will check Pedi's sink to see if I mistakenly placed your second plexi with his sink.. If so I will pull it and ship it later on this month...

You must not send the plexi for my sink, hehe...

Pedi · Post by **Pedi** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:14 am

Nico, glad on your behalf that it made it all the way home!

Enjoy the beauty...

nico boom · Post by **nico boom** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 4:45 am

Nice that you enjoy this with me my brothers!
I remembered you mentioning the high rail-voltage after checking the amp for me Cecil.
You mentioned it was way higher then the MS2250 you did for me earlier. Never thought it would be the subject of this little discussion though..

Although I do not have any doubts about the measurements of you Cecil, if one of wants to, and tell me where to measure, I can easily clear this up.
The amp will play, each half in bridged mode, on one tower [6 ohm], so I guess there's more than enough headroom for any type of music.
As from today, I am changing the whole home-setup; this monster just won't fit in my current setup

Lucky for me, I have a wife that only just smiles when she lookes at me talking about, and tinkering with, my PG-stuff.
Also she accepts that the coming of this amp means yet another change in our livingroom....

Have not decided yet if I will sell the original sidepanels with connectors after changing them to the oldschool-ones.
First I'd like to hear this amp in action!

nico

Post by **Eric D** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:44 am

Well, Cecil, I would never doubt you on your ability to use a DMM, or especially your ability to check an amps voltage rails, especially since this is something so easily done on a MS amp. However, there must be more to the story, either something you are not letting on, or something you over looked.

Nico can you take a close up photo of one of the transformers of this amp?

I know the amp has 63V caps, that information is written right on the side of the cap. But, if it has only two primaries on each transformer which is what it looks like to me from the photos I am seeing, there is no way it would have 63V rails. This would be physically impossible, unless the transformers were modified, and you stated you did not modify them.

Back when I discovered my MS1000 did not have 63V rails, I began studding the design to figure out where I could improve it. Once I knew the transformers were to blame, I asked PG if I could purchase some original wound transformers. They stated no more existed, and I even had more than one source on the inside verify this for me.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but those are black screw terminals, right? So this amp is from the very last batch of TA amps made, as they ran out of the white set screw terminals and went with what other items they had in stock. To the best of my knowledge, they also used up all the other TA parts they had on hand for these last amps. It makes no sense they would install an original transformer in one of these amps, and if they did run out, it also makes no sense they would wind a new one which is a complete one off and would require changing the preamp and power supply parts to compensate for its differences.

I know I should just let it go and agree with what you are saying, but I also know you work on tons of amps, and you are human. It is possible you checked something else or otherwise made a human error to arrive at your conclusion this amp has 63V rails.

I won’t believe it until I see a photo of a DMM connected to this amp showing the 63V rails, and some photos showing the transformer.

Cecil, look at it from my perspective. If I told you I just measured 80V on a MS275 from the factory you would think I am nuts. You would know this is impossible. Well, I know enough about the MS2250 and the MS2250TA to know there is no way a TA could possibly have 63V rails from the factory. The only amps PG has made in the MS lineup with these voltages are the original MS2250 and original MS1000, and these have not been built in several years.

thedeal7235 · Post by **thedeal7235** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:11 am

THAT is SOOOOOOOOOOOO Sweet, I am SOOOOOOOOOOO envious!!!!!! Please post pics after installed!!!!! Hope I can get one someday

Post by **Eric D** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:17 am

Here, check this link out…

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

My modified MS2250TA boards were built to “identical MS2250 original specs”, aside from one difference. I did not use the same gauge wire on my primaries. Instead of 18 gauge as in the original, I used the same 23 gauge which I used for the secondaries. However, I used more of them to get the same cross sectional area of the original with 18 gauge. This was a cost saving measure. I did not have the cash at the time to buy another $200 spool of 18 gauge magnet wire for the handful of amps I was planning to modify.

Now, the original MS2250, and MS1000 have 61V rails, something I observed when I modified my amp to their specs, and I later verified when I worked on Ben Vollmer’s MS2250 original, seen here…

http://www.soundbuggy.com/Eric/Car%20Au ... index.html

So, Cecil, if you stand behind your measurement of 63V rails, you are effectively saying Nico has the most powerful MS1000 in the world, or ever built. If this is the case, did they charge a premium for it? They most certainly could have fetched more money for it if this were true, so did they market it as such?

1moreamp · Post by **1moreamp** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:22 am

nico boom wrote:Nice that you enjoy this with me my brothers!
I remembered you mentioning the high rail-voltage after checking the amp for me Cecil.
You mentioned it was way higher then the MS2250 you did for me earlier. Never thought it would be the subject of this little discussion though..

nico

Sorry Nico, I probably should not have mentioned it, BUT I spoke the truth and I stand by that. Your MW3 2250 was setp for low ohm loads it will still deliver, but it just wants low ohm loads to do it.

Eric, a side note, at idle no load with the correct regulator control parts in place I think almost any voltage may be possible on these amps. I have had a chance to see the differences in both of Nico's amps and its just a few components at best. I saw this because i have close ups of both and the lay out and parts count are the same, so it has to be a few simple value changes involved here.

I am aware of your rewound transformers, I was much intrigued by your work here in this area. And i make no claim to be a magnetics expert. If I want more current I add more circular cross section area, It I want higher voltage I add more turns to change the ratio.

I remember your work on this in the past, and I don't challenge your work or findings, I just state what I have seen on the last few pieces I have had cross my bench.

Post by **smgreen20** » Sat Feb 23, 2008 12:33 pm

I don't know why, but one (the amp that is, not you) hasn't looked so beautiful. I don't know why yours just GLOWS.

Enjoy it. BITCH! LOL

I'm calling everyone a bitch lately. I'm just an ass. LOL